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Soins de santé
M. Volpé : Ma question est pour le ministre de la Santé.
Yesterday, the minister said: The responsibility for the orderly conduct of the Department of Health
is mine, and I take it very seriously. He said: The responsibility for the administration of the
Department of Health is mine, and people’s personal health information is extremely confidential
and very sensitive.
Voici la question que j’ai pour le ministre ce matin. Lorsque d’autres informations ont été envoyées,
immédiatement après qu’on ait appris que la première information n’avait pas été reçue, le ministre
avait-il identifié le problème?
Je vous pose une question. Si cela avait été votre argent ou vos informations personnelles dans
l’enveloppe, auriez-vous envoyé l’information une deuxième fois sans avoir identifié la source du
problème?
Hon. Mr. Murphy:
With regard to the procedures that have been followed by the Department of
Health in the past, we have ordered a full review of those procedures. We have ordered a full review
of security around all the databases, and we have invited the Ombudsman to take part in that full
review. This is the first time, to the knowledge of staff of the Department of Health or to the
knowledge of members here on this side, that such a breach has occurred. Once again, New
Brunswickers should be aware that we have no information whatsoever that any of this has been
misused, but we continue to be vigilant, and we continue to search for it.
Mr. Volpé: That is not an answer. What I was asking was this: Given the privileged information that
was provided, what was done, before sending it back, to correct the problem?
Je vais répéter ma question parce que je pense que c’est très important. Si cela avait été les
informations personnelles du ministre lui-même, qu’aurait-il fait? Si cela avait été son argent ou son
passeport dans l’enveloppe, aurait-il envoyé la même information une deuxième fois sans essayer
de trouver la source du problème.
Une première fois, cela peut aller. Cependant, on essaie d’identifier le problème avant d’envoyer
l’information une deuxième fois. Alors, ma question pour vous est celle-ci : Qu’est-ce qui a été fait
pour corriger le problème avant d’envoyer l’information une deuxième fois?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: As I have indicated, we have begun a call centre as of 1 p.m. yesterday, and
over 100 of the 485 New Brunswickers affected have been called. So far, there is no indication of
any malfeasance or misuse of this information. We only know that it is lost.
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With regard to the procedures of the Department of Health and why certain events occurred, that is
all being reviewed, and we have invited the Ombudsman to take part in that. This is a very serious
matter. It involves the personal health information of New Brunswickers, and that is very sacred to
us.
M. Volpé : Pour beaucoup de gens du Nouveau-Brunswick, le numéro d’assurance-maladie et le
numéro d’assurance sociale sont le même. J’espère que le ministre réalise la gravité de la situation
actuelle. Si votre numéro d’assurance sociale est le même que votre numéro d’assurance-maladie
— c’est le cas pour beaucoup de gens au Nouveau-Brunswick —, on sait quel impact ce genre de
situation peut avoir. Cela peut avoir un impact de plusieurs millions de dollars. Une personne de
mauvaise foi pourrait utiliser cette information, et cela vaut beaucoup d’argent.
Ce matin, ma question pour le ministre est très simple. Qu’est-ce qui a été fait, après qu’on a su
qu’on avait perdu de l’information, pour s’assurer qu’on n’envoie pas la même information dans le
même trou noir? Des actions ont-elles été prises immédiatement avant d’envoyer l’information une
deuxième fois?
Faire une erreur, c’est une chose. Faire la même erreur deux fois, c’est grave. Je vous demande
quelles actions ont été prises pour s’assurer que, la deuxième fois, la même erreur ne soit pas
répétée.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: In order that something like this will not occur again, staff have been advised
that if there is any belief that something is not normal, or if they believe that information has been
misplaced, stolen, or misappropriated in any way, shape, or form, they are to immediately and
always talk to their superiors.
014 10:50
The director, in this instance, launched her own review as quickly as possible, reconstructed the
events as quickly as possible, and provided the information to the assistant deputy minister, being
under the impression it had been gone for a few days. He did the same to me, on the same day,
which was last Thursday. When we found out, by critical mass of information and investigation over
the last few days—and we found this out on Monday—we came before the House on Tuesday, to
ensure the safety of New Brunswickers’ health information.
M. Volpé : Je veux juste m’assurer d’avoir bien compris. Le ministre nous dit ce matin que
l’information a été envoyée une première fois, mais que rien n’a été fait pour corriger l’erreur avant
d’envoyer cette information une deuxième fois. Voilà la réponse que j’ai reçue ce matin. Je pense
que le ministre ne réalise pas l’inquiétude que cela va apporter aux gens du Nouveau-Brunswick.
Quiconque peut faire une erreur au Nouveau-Brunswick, mais on essaie de ne pas la faire une
deuxième fois. Je vous ai demandé très clairement : Des mesures ont-elles été prises pour vous
assurer que l’information envoyée une deuxième fois n’irait pas au même endroit que l’information
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envoyée la première fois? Vous me dites que rien n’a été fait du tout et que l’information a été
envoyée une deuxième fois. Peut-on savoir l’information envoyée une deuxième fois s’est rendu à
destination?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The procedures in place at the Department of Health have been in place for
many years. We are moving toward a new system, with more interoperability amongst jurisdictions,
along with the e-health initiative. This certainly allows us to be even more vigilant. It also is
something that brings to the forefront, for New Brunswickers, the necessary requirement for very
strict and consultative privacy information legislation, which, I have indicated to the House and to
the public, will be brought before the Legislature in this session next spring. I think that it is an
opportunity to do far better with regard to privacy and to lead the country. That is what we will do.
M. C. Landry : Je pense qu’on assiste à une situation très sérieuse pour les gens du Nouveau-
Brunswick. Je pense que le chef de l’opposition a déjà posé la question au ministre. La deuxième
fois que la Colombie-Britannique a demandé l’information, a-t-on vérifié… Le ministre peut-il
confirmer à la Chambre si on a pris des mesures pour s’assurer que l’information qui a été envoyée
une deuxième fois en Colombie-Britannique a bien été reçue par cette province?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: It is my understanding that the information on a second cartridge, or second
package, was received by British Columbia, and the payments were made back and forth.
M. C. Landry : Selon ma compréhension, le ministre nous confirme aujourd’hui que l’information
a été reçue par le gouvernement de la Colombie-Britannique. On parle d’information médicale et
confidentielle, que ce soit le type de traitement reçu par un patient, son nom, son numéro
d’assurance-maladie, sa date de naissance ou son genre, un homme ou une femme, et ce sont tous
des renseignements importants.
Le ministre peut-il nous informer quelle mesure aussi… Parce que, selon ma compréhension,
l’ombudsman du Nouveau-Brunswick se pose de sérieuses questions. Il demande de l’information
au ministère de la Santé, mais je pense qu’il n’y a pas une bonne communication entre ce ministère
et l’ombudsman. Ce dernier doit même aller chercher de l’information à l’extérieur de la province.
À l’heure où l’on se parle, le ministre a-t-il pris des mesures pour faciliter le travail de l’ombudsman
dans la province du Nouveau-Brunswick afin que, lorsqu’il pose des questions au ministère de la
Santé, il reçoive l’information nécessaire?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: With regard to the consultative process with the Ombudsman, on May 18 of
this year, I advised the Ombudsman that we would like for him to partake in the personal health
information task force. On May 24, he met with the co-chairs of the task force. On July 18, they
received a submission. On September 7, they met with the Ombudsman. On October 3, I received
an invitation from the Ombudsman to partake in a public session, which I did on October 3. On
October 18, the Ombudsman, invited by Don Ferguson the Deputy Minister, partook in the release
of the task force report. On October 24, he received a copy. On October 24, we announced that we
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would be partaking in further consultation. On October 26, he took part in a stakeholder information
session on it. On October 31, I wrote to the Ombudsman, to provide him with information he
requested. On November 22, we met with him, with our senior staff, and we also offered to have a
regular, ongoing meeting scheduled. Meetings are being planned constantly on this.
015 10:55
M. C. Landry : Le ministre de la Santé peut-il nous indiquer quelle est la ligne de communication
à son ministère? Il semble y avoir un manque de communication entre les employés du ministère.
Les employés ont-ils peur d’aller parler au ministre de la Santé? C’est là la question qu’il faut se
poser.
Le ministre de la Santé peut-il nous indiquer quelle est la ligne de communication qui existe entre
le ministre et les employés de son ministère? Je pense qu’il y a un problème au ministère, et je me
demande si ce n’est pas le ministre lui-même, s’il y a un manque de leadership ou s’il fait peur aux
employés du ministère. Ici, on parle d’information confidentielle, mais on ne réussit pas à obtenir
l’information pour que le ministre soit informé à temps. Quelle est la ligne de communication entre
le ministre et les employés du ministère?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: There is ongoing communication with the Office of the Ombudsman. During
a period of six months, we had 11 avenues of consultative discussions with the Ombudsman. In fact,
on November 22, a long meeting was held with him to update him with regard to the process of the
privacy legislation initiative and on the e-health initiative and on the contracts. Prior to that, we had
sent further information to him. There is a very cooperative and collaborative approach with the
Ombudsman.
Mr. Urquhart: My question to the minister is this. What is he going to do to protect the bank
accounts, the credit cards, and the personal information of all the New Brunswickers? Many of these
people were involved with Health because of sickness or problems they are having, and they are at
the most vulnerable time in their lives. All of a sudden, they now realize that their personal
information, such as bank accounts and everything, is at stake. Blaming the government of British
Columbia or blaming the lady in the cubicle on the second floor of the Centennial Building is, to me,
all signs of a guilty person looking to put the blame and the responsibility on another person.
The fast-growing crime in today’s wireless world is identity theft. It does not take months or years.
Much of this information is bought, sold, and traded. It is put together in master files, and years from
now, people’s worlds can start to fall apart. The bank accounts can be empty. You can go to buy
pills, and the credit cards do not work. That is when identity theft really comes home. We have to
be protected from these people. What is the minister putting in place today to protect the bank
accounts of each and every one of these people?
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Hon. Mr. Murphy: I am the minister responsible for the ongoing protection of personal health
information in the Department of Health. When a breach occurs that has never occurred before, it
is I who immediately issues, and issued, the directives to secure the information. The government
of British Columbia has offered, to the individuals affected in B.C., a credit monitoring program.
We are reviewing that as we speak. Yesterday, we began calling at 1 p.m., and as of today, there has
been no reported misuse of this information. At the same time, nothing that occurred would be the
responsibility of those New Brunswickers.
With regard to the information itself, remember that it is on technology that is now obsolete. You
have to have a mainframe computer, and that type of technology was only mainstream in data
centres. We believe that the risk is being minimized as we speak, but at the same time, we
understand that New Brunswickers are very concerned, and we are too.
Mr. Urquhart: Is the minister going to guarantee the reimbursement of financial loss and the
greatly expensive legal costs that can, and will, affect many of these people down the road? Every
day, on your BlackBerry, and every day, on your computer, you see something from India, Africa,
the United States, or New Brunswick, saying that you have won a big, million-dollar prize, for
example.
016 11:00
These people are not going to clean you out all of a sudden. What they do is, when you put any
information in there, they take that little bit of information. I go back 32 years investigating these
crimes and I have seen people come in every day. Years later, they have said they won and they sent
them $100. Now, all of a sudden, it starts going. It could be two years later. Something has to be in
place to protect every piece of information when people come to government, whether it is the name
of their dog, the name of their child, the name of their cat, or the type of car they drive. All this
information goes into a file to create an identity. You are not . . .
Mr. Speaker: Time.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The facts that my friend opposite outlines with regard to what transpires are
very true. There are some big dangers out there in cyberspace and in the acquisition of private
information—financial information and health information. We have taken that very, very seriously
as a government. That is why we had the task force in place, and we did that over a period of four
months. We met with the Ombudsman and we are working on legislation, in consultation with the
Ombudsman and all stakeholders, so that things like that do not happen. His points are well taken.
We have to prepare for that and we will prepare for that. We will ensure that the protection of
people’s financial and health information is paramount in all this legislation.
Mr. Urquhart: We know what British Columbia is doing and we know what the study is doing. We
need to know today what this government is going to do so that every person who goes to Service
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New Brunswick to get a driver’s license, every person who goes to the doctor and gives their
Medicare number, and every person who has any dealing with any government official of the
province of New Brunswick or the Liberal government in this province . . . What is the government
going to do to make sure that not one piece of that information is lost, misplaced, or stolen?
Hon. Mr. Byrne: I would like to respond to that because there was a specific reference to Service
New Brunswick. Service New Brunswick takes personal security very, very seriously. When you
apply to Service New Brunswick online, whether it be for a birth certificate or a motor vehicle
certificate, that information is not kept. It is not stored in any data bank. There are security measures
in place to ensure that there is no opportunity for anybody to access that personal information.
Service New Brunswick is totally secure. I want to correct that misinformation because it was raised
yesterday in this House and I did not correct it at the time.
L’hon. P. Robichaud : Je pense que l’Assemblée législative du Nouveau-Brunswick est saisie d’une
situation extrêmement grave aujourd’hui. On a un ministre de la Santé qui, durant les derniers 24
heures, a fait deux déclarations, s’est levé sur un point de privilège et a ajouté de la confusion à la
confusion déjà existante. Le ministre de la Santé dit dans sa première déclaration qu’il parle d’un
incident troublant. Je lui rappellerai que ce n’est pas un incident troublant mais un incident
extrêmement grave qui s’est produit sous sa responsabilité en tant que ministre de la Santé. Il nous
dit qu’il a été mis au courant de cette situation jeudi dernier, mais il a attendu au-delà de six jours
avant d’aviser soit l’Assemblée législative ou la population du Nouveau-Brunswick de cet incident.
Ma question au ministre de la Santé est la suivante : Étant donné que la situation avec laquelle nous
sommes aux prises est extrêmement grave et que le ministre de la Santé a remis un autre
communiqué aujourd’hui disant que, jusqu’à maintenant, il n’y a aucune preuve que cette
information ait été utilisée à des fins malveillantes, a-t-il fait ce que tout ministre aurait normalement
dû faire? Étant donné que l’information qui est contenue dans ces documents pourrait servir à des
utilisations malveillantes, le ministre de la Santé a-t-il lui-même communiqué avec la Gendarmerie
royale du Canada pour la mettre au courant de cette situation?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The police in British Columbia and in New Brunswick have been advised. I
have outlined the timelines that have occurred here. This information was gathered mostly on
Monday. On Thursday afternoon, the belief of senior management, as advised to myself, was that
the information had been missing for a few days and that the courier service was looking for it.
Rather than play with vague references, we outlined the timeline as we knew it and the events that
had occurred.
017 11:05
In the last 24 hours, further information has come to my hands, and I have a duty to come before this
House and the public to provide that information to them. I have done so in two statements and a
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point of privilege, and I will continue to advise New Brunswickers of all these matters, as they
pertain to their information.
M. P. Robichaud : Le ministre est en situation de gestion de crise. Il la gère très mal comme
ministre responsable de la situation qui se présente maintenant au ministère de la Santé. Nous ne
pouvons faire autre que le croire. Il dit qu’il a été mis au courant de cette situation jeudi dernier. Il
a avisé l’Assemblée législative et la population du Nouveau-Brunswick hier, six jours plus tard.
Dans une situation de crise, il n’y a pas d’heures, de journées, de fins de semaine ou de congés. On
avise immédiatement quand on est mis au courant. Le ministre a attendu six jours. Ma question au
ministre est : Étant donné que l’information contenue dans ces documents pourrait servir à des gens
très mal intentionnés et pourrait servir jusqu’à la mafia pour faire du chantage et de l’intimidation,
le ministre de la Santé a-t-il fait ce qu’il aurait dû? A-t-il avisé la Gendarmerie royale du Canada dès
qu’il a su que des documents confidentiels et personnels avaient été égarés sous sa responsabilité
comme ministre de la Santé? A-t-il communiqué avec la Gendarmerie royale du Canada, oui ou
non?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: Just to correct the record, last Thursday afternoon, I was advised by senior
management that it believed that this package had been misplaced. The courier company was
looking for it. Of course, we are not going to alarm New Brunswickers when something is believed
to be missing for a few days. At the same time, the senior management went into an investigative
mode as quickly as possible. On Monday of this week, in the early afternoon, I was advised that the
package had been missing for two months. Then, a few hours later, after working hours, on Monday
evening, around 6 p.m. or thereabouts, I was advised that operations in Medicare had been advised
on October 25. The next day, I came with all the information before this House and the people of
New Brunswick to advise them.
M. P. Robichaud : Le ministre ajoute encore à la confusion qu’il créé lui-même. Il a dit, dans sa
déclaration d’hier qu’il avait appris cette nouvelle jeudi dernier. Il a avisé l’Assemblée législative
hier, mardi. Jeudi, vendredi, samedi, dimanche, lundi et mardi — on parle de six jours avant qu’il
s’ouvre la trappe sur un enjeu aussi important que de la documentation personnelle et confidentielle
égarée. Ma question au ministre de la Santé est très simple. Vous avez prouvé à maintes et maintes
reprises que vous avez failli à votre responsabilité et à votre tâche. L’information a été égarée
pendant au-delà de deux mois, et vous n’avez rien fait. Vous le saviez et vous avez attendu six jours
avant d’en parler. Avez-vous au moins communiqué avec la Gendarmerie royale du Canada?
D’après votre hésitation à répondre à nos questions, cela ne semble pas être le cas. Avez-vous au
moins dit à votre collègue, le ministre de la Sécurité publique, que cette information avait été égarée
et qu’une enquête sérieuse devrait être entreprise par la Gendarmerie royale du Canada, afin de
savoir où est allée cette information, dans quelles mains elle est tombée et à quoi sert cette
information qui est très importante aux gens du Nouveau-Brunswick? Avez-vous fait votre travail?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The police were advised as soon as we found out that this was not a situation
where information was simply misplaced for a few days. A full revision and review is going on with
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regard to all the procedures surrounding the control and security of data in the Department of Health.
All of these measures are being conducted as we speak. If I acquire further information, I will ensure
that the public and the House know.
Mr. Fitch: The minister keeps referring to senior management in his comments, but he has to realize
that he is the senior manager of that department. No one is more senior than he is. He is responsible.
On April 28, 2005, during question period, the MLA for Fredericton-Fort Nashwaak, now the
Minister of Education, said that Ontario Health Minister Jim Wilson:
resigned his post over breach of privacy allegations . . . It was an aide in his department, and not
even the minister personally . . . An aide in his department made a comment . . . .The minister at
the time, even though he had not personally done it, resigned.
018 11:10
These are the words of the Minister of Education from Hansard, so I am just reading them back to
him.
He said: I believe it is both honourable and appropriate that I step aside.
That was from one of the Minister of Health’s own colleagues. I have known the Minister of Health
for a long time. We have been friends. We have worked on files; sometimes we have been on the
same side and sometimes we have been opposed. Given the circumstances, it is with a heavy heart
that I have to ask him to resign today.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The issue of which the member for Fredericton-Fort Nashwaak spoke two years
ago concerned an illegal act by an individual within a department. Yes, I am certainly senior
management, and I work with a team of senior management people. It is very difficult for senior
management to take an action until they are made aware of the circumstances. Since we were made
aware of a procedure that clearly was not followed, we have been taking all the corrective actions
of which I have spoken here today and yesterday.
Mr. Fitch: B.C. is acting much more quickly than we are here. Again, during Statements by
Members, from Hansard on April 29, 2005, the MLA for Charlotte-The Isles, who is currently
Minister of Fisheries, said:
On April 18, 1991, Ontario Health Minister Evelyn Gigantes accidentally blurted out the name of
a patient receiving addiction treatment during a response in question period. Understanding the
significance of breaking confidentiality, Minister Gigantes, later that day, said that she was
horrified . . . One day later, Minister Gigantes resigned. Premier Bob Rae said: While the mistake
was made, there was no bad faith on her part. Nevertheless, he thought that it was fair to
say—important to say—they valued, as a government, the principle of privacy.
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This is a matter of principle. This is a matter of the utmost importance. There are members in the
Minister of Health’s caucus who think he should resign. We think he should resign. Is he going to
follow the precedent and the example set by his counterparts in Ontario? Will he do the honourable
thing and resign?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The minister being referenced by the member opposite breached information
security herself on the floor of the House. This is a very serious issue. It is an operations issue. The
procedures are being completely reviewed. The security around the database is being reviewed.
There is a consultative process that has been ongoing for a number of months with the Ombudsman,
and the Ombudsman has been invited to review all the security procedures around the databases over
which we have control. This is an extraordinary event. We take it very seriously, and we acted
proactively within hours of acquiring the critical mass of information.
Mr. Fitch: That’s right, it is an extraordinary event. That is why we do not take it lightly when we
ask for the minister’s resignation. The precedent has been set in New Brunswick that ministers have
had to resign over issues that have come up. We know that the MLA for Charlotte-Campobello had
to resign because one person was compromised. That was one reason to resign. The minister today
has 485 reasons he needs to resign. He should do it now and get it over with.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The resignations of the two ministers of the former government were because
they themselves uttered words that breached security of personal information. I am responsible for
the continued protection of health information in the Department of Health, and we have found, in
operations, that there is an inefficient system there. It has been there for a couple of decades, and
we are at least taking corrective measures. We are now advancing into the era of e-health. We have
to ensure that this circumstance, as serious as it is, is taken as an opportunity to ensure not only that
we are vigilant, but that we are more vigilant than other jurisdictions. The privacy legislation that
will come in the spring will be the best that anyone can have.
019 11:15
M. Volpé : Étant donné le sérieux de l’enjeu, je pense qu’on ne devrait même pas avoir besoin de
demander au ministre de la Santé de démissionner, au moins durant le temps qu’on trouve
l’information qui a été perdue. Je pense qu’on ne devrait même pas lui demander. Il devrait luimême
faire la chose honorable, c’est-à-dire démissionner.
Ce matin, nous avons posé des questions très faciles, mais on n’a pas obtenu de réponses. Je vais
revenir à ma première question. Avez-vous fait quelque chose? C’est pour cela qu’on dit que vous
devez démissionner, car, de ce que nous comprenons, vous n’avez absolument rien fait avant
d’envoyer l’information une deuxième fois pour vous assurer qu’elle ne soit pas de nouveau perdue.
Faire une erreur, c’est un problème, mais de le répéter une deuxième fois, sans prendre de mesures
correctives, c’est une autre chose. On trouve cela tellement grave qu’on vous demande de
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démissionner de votre poste, parce que cela démontre l’incompétence qu’il y a actuellement, et que
cela devrait être corrigé.
Actuellement, les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick seront touchés. Il y a de l’information très sérieuse
et privilégiée qui a été perdue. Je demande une dernière fois au ministre : Êtes-vous prêt à laisser
votre poste, au moins en attendant que l’enquête soit faite et que la situation soit éclaircie? C’est
déjà commencé en Colombie-Britannique, alors que, au Nouveau-Brunswick, on se traîne les pieds
avec un dossier très, très sérieux.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: A number of the directives that were issued by me were issued within minutes,
and hours, of attaining the critical mass of information which told us these records had been missing
for two months. In fact, in operations of Medicare, the individual was advised on October 25. I have
outlined the timelines. It is very clear, from the timelines, that we acted properly and quickly, as
soon as that information was apparent to the government, to me, and to senior staff.
