Saturday, April 30, 2005


Yesterday, I heard from two different individuals
that I should locate someone famous to speak up with
me against the use of Ritalin.

I quickly answered - You mean that I'm not famous
enough or good looking enough???

I'm famous allright but all for the bad

My God? What can a person do?

The reason they mentioned this to me is because the
daughter of Elvis Presley Lisa Marie???? is speaking
out against the use of Ritalin in the States.

From what I'm told that Ritalin is ban from some
states! I will paste her story at the end of this Blog!!!

My God? Do I ever miss WCIE!!!! Oh where o where is
WCIE located??? I can't blog anything at the spur of
the moment about I have to email my blog to WCIE jr
and this takes time.

I must give credit to WCIE jr because if it wasn't
for him? There would be no blogs period.

I had a good chuckle the other day?

I was standing outside in front of the media office
in the Capital chatting with two individuals then
suddenly Andy Campbell from ATV News came running from
the building to his Van!

It was just like - beep beep the roadrunner. With
Camera in tow and going wild!

I shouted- What's going on????

He quickly answered- BREAKING News!

When he left, there's an Irving reporter who came
outside and I asked the individual what's going on????

The Irving employee answered - Sorry Charles,
you're the competition. We can't give you the info!

At the end it was a old couple from the small town
in Minto who were murdered.

I guess they were decapitated. Very sad when
something like this happened in this Province.

From what my sources told me that Andy Campbell
from ATV News got his van stuck!

I guess the killer was a neighbour and from what
I'm told? He had a party with some people and at

Mr Fulton came over and asked the guy if he could
lower the tune of the party.

I guess the guy said - I'll cut your head off!!!

The next day, he started to throw rocks at
Mr.Fulton vehicle every instance he went leave his

He told him that he was going to cut his head off
and I guess he did!!! Very sad story!!

But it's nice to see that these Irving reporters
don't wish to share their stories with me because they
fell that I'm the competition?

You know what? I'm going to take that as a

It's so funny! These Irving's reporters surround a
politician in the hallways of the Legislature and I'm
not allowed to asked questions because I refuse to
give my life and soul to the Irving Empire but anyway?

Once the politician is done? I can confront them
about my issue in private!

I notice when they speak to the media, someone from
their office is always there with a small tape
recorder but once it comes to me?

The recorder is shut off!

Maybe in the future? They should tape our
conversation so they can say that they never told this
to Charles.

My conversations are often off the record anyway!!!

I just stay in the background and listen. Hey?
Their job is to report the news and my job< don't get
paid for it > if to write the news and give my views
on the issue in hand.

Of course the readers have a chance to reply to my
blog. You sure can't use this in the Irving's media!
There's a story in the telegraph Journal that the LNG
deal is not fair!

I phoned the talk show this morning and told the
audience to not be fool by this because the Irving's
will print stories from both side of the LNG issue
till the Senate gives their final report in June!

After this is done?

They will return to only praising stories will be
printed in the Irving Papers!

I am still trying to get my column on the poor
printed in the Gleaner but I guess that the Irvings
gave the orders not to print stories about the issue
of the Poor!!!

Oh well c'est la vie!!!

Hey? You never know who's on my list!! I just
received the weather from Peter Coade from ATV News!!!

Here's his forcasts

Three day forecast - sunny breaks returning tomorrow
afternoon after todays rain taper to showers
overnight...more rain (but milder!0 moves in later on
Saturday persisting into Sunday then out on Monday..

Charlie, you should have built your ARK based on my
forecast of the past few days...


See??? I even have the weather forecasts in this
line of communication!!'s going to be
next??? Scares me to death in wondering!!!

Ok.Yesterday, I met with Victor Boudreau Liberal
MLA for Shediac.

At first, I told the newly elected MLA that I
didn't want to have lunch in the Cafeteria because
I'll be too easily distracted by all the politicians
in that area.

We found a nice spot and talked about the issue
close to two hours.

I guess that I succeeded in educating Victor of
what is going on in this Province.

While heading to lunch, I noticed Elvy Robichaud <
Health Minister > across the street and I shouted- I'M
It was a episode weeks ago when I phoned the talk show
- Voice of the Province!!!

On another issue? I had a good laugh while in

I phoned the talk show in the Loyalist City but
there was a problem.

Before I call the show? I checked the radio in the
house and guess what?

We couldn't hear a darn thing!

I told the host that it was a huge waste of time
because the citizens couldn't hear the show.

We chatted for 5 to 7 minutes and that was

30 minutes later, the host told the audience that
the frequency wasn't working so I call in again and
told the host the same story all over again!

I felt bad for the host.he began to hit his
keyboard while I was talking but I forgave the guy
because it's pretty hard to get into a conversation if
you already heard the

First time in my life that I phoned a talk show
with the same story twice.

After that accident, the citizens in the
Fredericton area cannot get the talk show!!!

My God? Cut off from Saint John????

Oh well c'est la vie!!!

Ok..Tim Smith is all ready for his protest and I
will concentrate on that issue in future blogs! Hey?
Is there anyone out there who has a tent for Tim
Smith??? Please let me know!!!

Please excuse the grammar and style of this update
because I just write the darn thing and send it along
the information Highway!!! Gotta go and if you're
still with me? Here's what Lisa Marie Presley had to
say about the issue of Ritalin.bye bye


Committee on House Government Reform
September 26, 2002
Thank you Congressman Burton and Committee Members for
the opportunity to address this Hearing.
I am speaking to you today as a mother of thirteen
years, one who is intimately familiar with the unique
and very special bond between a mother and her
However, I am also a mother who has repeatedly seen
that bond seriously threatened as more and more
parents have been convinced that their child's
creative endeavors, their enthusiastic energy, their
misbehavior, or perhaps even their disillusionment
with school, is a "mental disorder" which cries out
for a "chemical fix."
As a strong supporter of literacy for children, I am
aware of the power of workable literacy training, even
for children who have been convinced that they suffer
from some supposed brain-based learning disorder or
chemical imbalance which requires heavy drugging. Far
too often, when sufficient time was spent teaching
them true educational basics, including how to read,
their so-called "learning disorder" disappeared. I
have spoken to children who have been forced to take a
cocaine-like stimulant to control their behavior; I
have shared their sense of sheer desperation. To see a
child suffer a drug-induced psychotic break is not
something one easily forgets.
I know of children who could have easily been labeled
with "Attention Deficit Disorder" or ADHD sufferers,
who were found to be suffering from nothing else than
the toxic effects of chemicals in their environment.
I find it alarming that in my 13 years of motherhood,
the use of Ritalin for ADHD has increased 700 percent.
Today, it is estimated that between six and eight
million American children take psychiatric drugs for
ADHD and other so-called learning and behavioral
disorders. I am not aware of any scientific evidence
that validates these as diseases in the same way that
medical diseases can be.
Today, more than 20 million prescriptions for
stimulants are written each year. Prescriptions for
one stimulant, Adderal, increased 1,017 percent since
The list of possible side effects of Ritalin alone
includes nervousness, loss of appetite, weight loss,
manic behavior and a potential for future drug
dependence. Even the manufacturer of the drug warns
that "frank psychotic episodes can occur" with abuse.
Suicide is the major complication of withdrawal from
Ritalin and similar drugs.
Some 1.5 million children and teenagers are now
prescribed antidepressants such as Prozac, Zoloft, and
Paxil. The possible side effects of these drugs
include anxiety, agitation, insomnia, bizarre dreams,
suicidal thoughts, hostility and violent behavior.
Between 1988 and 1992, there were Food and Drug
Administration drug adverse reaction reports of 90
children and adolescents who had suffered suicidal or
violent self-destructive behavior while on one
In February 2000, a study published in the Journal of
the American Medical Association revealed the number
of American children between two and four years of age
who had been given psychiatric drugs, including
antidepressants, had soared 50% between 1991 and 1995.

Yet, now a peppermint flavored antidepressant is on
the market as an added incentive for children.
And with ADHD increasingly under fire in the media and
the community, parents are told that their child may
not have ADHD after all, but so-called "bipolar
disorder." The symptoms of this new affliction include
"poor handwriting," "difficulty organizing tasks,"
"complains of being bored," "is very creative," "is
willful," has "difficulty getting up in the morning,"
has trouble "concentrating in school," "argues with
adults," and is "easily distracted."
These "symptoms" are no less subjective than those
listed for ADHD. It seems that every childhood
activity or protest in life is being redefined as a
mental disease.
But there is much more to this alarming situation than
just an expanding list of child mental illnesses and
skyrocketing drug consumption.
Teenagers on powerful psychiatric drugs committed more
than half of the recent teenage shooting sprees,
resulting in 19 deaths and 51 wounded.
Government funds now permit parents, such as those
testifying here today, to be coerced and threatened if
they reject a questionable psychiatric diagnosis and
refuse to put their child on mind-altering drugs.
Children have been wrenched from their family's care
simply because their parents favored an alternative,
drug-free approach to addressing educational and
behavioral problems. The psychotropic drugging of
millions of children has to stop.
It is a tragedy that some parents have been forced to
resort to legal action to protect their children's and
their own parental rights to be free of such coercion!

Meanwhile in our classrooms, our teachers have been
co-opted into administering mental diagnostic tests to
determine whether students are "hyperactive" or
"bipolar." In fact, laws have had to be passed, for
example in Connecticut, and one introduced in New
York, to prevent teachers coercing parents into
drugging their children.
These are just a few aspects of what I believe will
one day be widely recognized as the totally needless
and tragic drugging of innocent children.
I am not saying that children don't have problems,
that they don't need special attention, or that
parents cannot reach their wits end when all
recommended solutions to their child's behavior have
What I do want to emphasize here today though, is that
only by looking for alternatives to drugs will parents
discover for themselves the numerous simple, workable
and drug-free answers to the problems of attention,
behavior and learning.
The common denominator is correct diagnosis. A child
could have allergies, lead toxicity, eyesight or
hearing problems, be simply in need of tutoring, or
something even more basic than that-phonics. The list
of possible causes is very long and well-documented,
but such child life-saving information has in effect
been increasingly denied to, or hidden from the view
of parents and others. This is a violation of their
right to "informed consent."
Instead of supporting what is legal drug pushing, our
governments, schools and doctors must ensure that
all-not carefully selected-information is made
available to parents in order for them to make an
informed choice about their child's educational and
medical needs.
In 1995 and 1997, the United Nations' International
Narcotics Control Board said that governments needed
to "...exercise vigilance" in order to prevent the
overdiagnosing of Attention Deficit Disorder and its
"medically unjustified treatment." I want to take this
opportunity of thanking the Committee for its
However, since 1997, the number of children put on
psychotropic drugs has almost doubled. America now
accounts for 90% of the world's Ritalin consumption.
Clearly, much more than vigilance is needed.
My hope is that this Committee will successfully and
continually work to ensure that any legislation
governing the mental health or education of our
children, provides parents with full information about
the available diagnostic and treatment alternatives to
child drugging in the true spirit of "informed
We must love, educate and take proper care of the
physical health of our children, and refuse to allow
them to be falsely labeled as mentally ill and then be
continuously drugged when there may very likely be a
simple cause and solution for their problem. We will
not achieve this without the broadly-informed support
of our governments, our citizens and our parents.

Tuesday, April 26, 2005


Ok..lay back and relax because this could be a long blog.

Last Thursday, I left the Capital with $1.50 in my pocket and I just came back this morning. Hey? Not too many people can say they went on a vacation for $1.50??

I was picked up outside of Fredericton Thursday morning by a driver who should have continued on his trek without me in his truck because once the guy found out who I was?

He began to raise his voice against the Federal Government. His arms were flying all over the place like a true Frenchman!

My God? Was he ever mad? He was what we call - The working poor!!!

He made one good point. He said- These days people have no money to upgrade their homes therefore in 15 to 20 years from now?

It’s going to be a real mess!

You know what? Think about it?

This Province might look like a real have not province in 15 years! It could look like a third world country? He droved me till Gagetown and was on his way!

Minutes later, I was picked up by a businessman. The funny part was that I was listening to talk of the town on my radio and once I open the door? He was listening to the same show with the volume very high.

Once again, he knew who I was because he heard my voice on the talk show on many occasions and drove me right at the Motel where I would meet the Senate.

Later in the day, I visited a friend in Dieppe and she droved me to my hometown of Memramcook.

I haven’t been in this Acadian area for years and it felt good to be back home. One interesting view was the Church in Memramcook!

While walking through College Bridge? I noticed the Church across the River. My God? Is it ever beautiful in the night skies!

They placed two huge spotlights out front and it looks very nice.

A lot of stories happened during my stay in the Valley but I’ll get to those in days ahead.

After a couple of days in the Valley, I decided to hitch a ride to Saint John.

I had to meet Tim Smith < VLT’S protester > and encourage him not to pursue his protest!

Once again, I got to the Port in a very short time period.

Once over Tim’s Smith, his daughter Shena came and met me at the door.

She has heard a lot about this Charles guy and she was anxious to know what this guy was all about?

She’s eight years old and she’s a cutty!

Afterwards, I set my concentration on Tim Smith.

He has a beautiful place and he could be happy with his daughter but this is not the case.

He’s not happy of the attitude of the Lord Government towards the issue of VLT’S.

Tim began to go in great details of the time that Bernard Lord was on Voice of the Province and sorta told Tim Smith that none of his suggestions would be taken seriously!

Let me tell you that he was not amuse by the ignorant attitude of the Premier!

He reminded me of myself before my six months protest.

I was talking to myself with great anger of the way that those racist members of the New Brunswick Human Rights Commission handle my racist case against the Irvings! I had to do something about my issue!

There was no way that I could tell Tim to let it go because I know what he’s going through!

It’s very difficult mentally wise when you have a Government who ignores the people but I don’t agree with the Hunger strike.

He shouldn’t go without food. He needs his strength to be the spoke person for the poor addicted soul.

Many people are committing suicide and the Lord Government calls it entertainment?

The next morning, I decided to blog his story. I pasted the blog and sent the info to all the people on my email list.

I was surprised because 20 minutes later the Telegraph Journal phoned Tim and asked him if it was true that he was returning to the Capital to resume his protest?

I might add that Global News showed up 45 minutes later with camera in tow to interview Tim Smith!

Later in the day, A photographer showed up for a picture and I asked - Hey? Can I be in the Irving paper??? Please??< while jumping up and down like a child >…lol…

Yes, bloggling is a fine way to spread the message to the public and it’s nice to see that other reporters are reading my blogs!

Hey? There’s only one itty bitty proble with this situation!

They get paid for their work and I don’t!!!

I don’t care because Bloggling is just a hobby of mine.

But I soon found out that if I don’t write in my blog on a daily basis? The numbers goes down very quickly.

Last week, my numbers were up to 150 hits a day and this morning it’s down to 100! A person has to upgrade the blog every day!

I have much more to write about but it will have to wait to tonight or the morning!

Here’s Tim Smith story which was on the front page in today’s paper!

Hey? A question? If Charles LeBlanc would write in his blog that he’s going to continue his protest about the issue of Ritalin next week!!!!

Would the Irving newspapers cover the Story??? You tell me??? Here’s Tim’s story!!

By the way? I confronted many MLA’S this morning about Tim’s protest! I’m trying to have his suggestions go in actions so he wouldn’t have to travel to the Capital to voice his concerns.

The Politicians in the Lord Government must understand that he’s not the only one with this problem and New Brunswickers want action and I might add that it’s not healthy for his beautiful daughter Sheana!

Stay tune for more on this issue in the days ahead!!!!’s his story-

SJ Telegraph-Journal | Provincial News
As published on page A1/A6 on April 26, 2005

Hunger striker ready to resume VLT protest
(David Nickerson/Telegraph-Journal)
Gambling addict Tim Smith will be back in Fredericton next week.


Gambling addict Tim Smith says he will go hungry again.

The Saint John man, who this winter staged a hunger strike for eight days at the legislature to protest video lottery terminals, will return to Fredericton next week to resume his post.

"People are suffering and this is wrong. They're exploiting (an) obsessive compulsive disorder and addictive personalities," he said.

Mr. Smith said Monday that he is fed up with the inaction of Bernard Lord's government when it comes to VLTs.

In the hopes of spurring officials in Fredericton to take his plight seriously, Mr. Smith said he will return with signs of protest and a will to ignore his appetite for as long as it takes.

"They lied to me. Bernard Lord doesn't understand the severity of it.

"Something's got to be done," he said.

It was only three months ago that Mr. Smith paced a short path in front of the legislature, while temperatures dipped well below zero, to wear a sandwich board that read "Vulnerable Lives Taken Senselessly.

"Our government is as addicted as the people they're killing."

He admitted to gambling away about $100,000 since 1995, losing his cars and his daughter to child welfare services.

He finally ended his hunger strike, looking thin and haggard, when four Tory cabinet ministers agree to meet with him and hear his suggestions on curbing VLT usage across New Brunswick.

Specifically, he asked the government to institute a day of rest when VLTs would be inactive, and reviewing hours of operation for VLTs.

Those ministers, including Finance Minister Jeannot Volpé, said they were taking Mr. Smith's concerns very seriously.

But Mr. Volpé, whose responsibilities include video lottery terminals, said he doesn't think he'll have anything new to tell Mr. Smith next week.

"I've never said no to any meeting with anyone. But the message might be the same for me," he said.

Mr. Volpé said his government is reviewing VLT usage across New Brunswick.

Total Atlantic Lottery Corporation sales in New Brunswick hit $298.8 million in 2003-04, of which 45.5 per cent came from VLTs.

Still, he will meet with Mr. Smith in Fredericton, if or when he asks.

"I do understand what he's saying. What we're saying is we're looking at what's happening in other jurisdictions, and we'll listen to him again. There will always be someone saying that is not enough.

"But at the same time there are also most people who gamble for fun."

Mr. Smith said he doesn't believe anything government says now.

Instead, Mr. Smith, who hasn't gambled for 105 days, will take the drastic measure of trying to place his eight-year-old daughter in foster care so he may return to his protest.

"I still crave it, I want to (gamble) really bad, but the point is I don't want to lie to myself and too anybody else. Something has to be done about this, I have to hold out, I have to be true to what I'm doing for my friends, and myself and other people," he said.

Someone must stand up for gamblers who are in too deep, especially when government officials say some people use VLTs for entertainment only, he said.

"I don't find it entertaining to watch people totally devastate themselves and kill themselves to pay the bills of this province," he said.

Do you have any comments? Leave them in this blog because politicians and Tim Smith reads them with great interest! Please excuse the style and grammar of this update because I just write the darn thing and send it along the information Highway! Bye bye!!!!

Thursday, April 21, 2005


One Senator cannot believe his ears of the way the Irvings are controlling the newspapers in this province.

The Former New Brunswick Lieutenant Governor seem to be protecting the Irvings! One Senator said- I have been hearing this Irving 200 times since this morning! What's going on???? The Comun Front and Unions are going to say- The Irvings press don't cover their concerns! I'm going to make a presentation in about one hour and they must think that I'm nuts because I'm in and out in and out!!!! The Irvings are getting slaughtered big times and I don't believe that we will see any of this in the Irving's Newspapers and that's too bad!!! Ok,,,,I gotta go and excuse the way I wrote these blogs because I don't even bother going back to read what I wrote!!! Stay tune!!!! I like this Bloggling stuff!!! Too bad that I'm not being paid for it!! It would be a good job!!


Fast one here!!! A goup of people from L'Acadie Nouvelle newspaper told the Senate that they are worried of the way the Irvings are also buying the French newspapers in this Province.

It's such a small market for a small minority of Froncophone. What I find funny in these hearings? They always call it -Brunswick News and it should be Irvings News!!! From what I gather? The Irvings wants L'Acadie Nouvelle real bad and it's all part of the final solution of the Irving Empire! Control the mind of both cultures in this Province and everything will be ok! The Staff told the Senate that there should be more than one owner in this province. I bumped into Rod Allen..he's a reporter from the Moncton Transcript! I knew his name but never met the guy! Sounds like a nice guy and I did give him a piece of my mind because the Moncton Transcript never covered one minute of my protest...ok...I am not even going to read what i just spell check no nothing!!!....Got to go BLOGGLING!!!!!


This morning Jackie Webster voice her concern the way the Irvings owns all the newspapers and this afternoon it was David Henley who used to own the Northside News and the Bugle in Woodstock!

He told the Senate that he couldn't compete with the Irvings because of the advetissement dollars! What I found distrubing was Senator Trenholme Counsell because we have such a small province that we should consider ourseleves lucky to have the Irvings as owners! I almost shouted- WHAT???? David continue to say that the Irvings never started a paper from nothing! In my view < charles > They always wait till the paper strives and go for the kill!!!! I am not too inpress with the Senator but lets see what's going to happen when it's my turn! Sorry!!! No time to spell check or paragraph!!!! I chatted with Mr.Henley and asked him if he could tell me how many Irving people are in the room! I confronted one of them and was told nothing! Yes!! The Irving Gestapo is all over the place but we don't know who they are but they are taking notes!!! to run!!!THIS IS BLOGGLING!!! stay tune for more!!!!


This is just a quick update and yes it could be a bad grammaire one.

I hitch a ride this morning and made it to the front door of the Motel in Dieppe!

Once throught the doors, I noticed a few reporters from CBC and I was told that I wasn't choosen by the Senate to speak freely on the issue of the Irving Monopoly in this Province!

I would like to know why????

Mind you? I am not in a happy mood!

I noticed a few Irving people around and they are watching the situation very closely!

I also chatted with Trenholme Counsell, Marilyn - Lib and I asked point blank if it was true that Jamie Irving is going out with her Daughter?

She told me that he used too but not any longer!

I told her that it was impossible for me to say everything in four minutes and I was promise a generous four minutes!

I just hate to rush but with my ADHD? It's impossible for me to say everything in 4 minutes! Lets see and watch what's going to happen! I am suppose to make my presentation at 4:00pm!!!

I noticed there are also many high class people around and they're wondering who the hell is this guy who wishes to speak? Ok!!

I'm in a rush and stay tune today in this update for more news!

I was also told that the Irvings are going to be the last one to speak! I wonder why???? You tell moi????

Wednesday, April 20, 2005


This is a sweetheart name Sylvie! She always put a smile on everyone faces once she walks in the Soup Kitchen! There are many young people giving their time at this needy place. I guess Sylvie has been giving her time and affort for the last three years!

Charles 04_07_05 107

and another

Charles 04_07_05 106


You can do so with MSN Messenger. My handle is


I am a little sad today so therefore I don’t really feel like writing a update.

I received a email this morning from WCIE!!!

He told me he wanted to meet me at Reid’s News Stand at 10:30am.

Once there, he told me that he had a little present for me and it was a brand new computer.

My thanks goes all to the people who sent WCIE the money for this to be possible. < You know who you are!!! >

We went over my place and it sure looks good!

Afterwards, we droved around and went for Lunch. Of course, we took some more pictures around the area. < I got some good ones. >

WCIE dropped me off out front of the Legislature and it might be the final time that I will ever see him again.

I’m not the huggy type but I get give him a little hug for all the help he gave me since the beginning of the year. After he left, I felt sad because I lost a good new friend.

WCIE is heading towards Western Canada but all is not lost because we have the internet to connect with each other.

He’s a nice guy and he’ll be miss by a few people around this area.

My prayers goes out to him for a safe trip!!!

I received some bad news this morning. The guy who was supposed to drive me to Moncton couldn’t make it. So I guess that I’ll have to hitch a ride to Moncton in the morning.

Hey? I don’t care and it’s nice for me to escape from the Capital for a while but I don’t believe that I can make my little meeting for the kids with ADHD Friday morning.

It’s only a presentation for 15 minutes I guess. This has nothing to do with the issue of Ritalin so lets see what’s going to happen?

Anyone going to Moncton in the morning? Send me an email!

Ok..someone wrote that I shouldn’t write any Anti-Irving column against the Irvings in the River Valley News because the Irvings might buy the paper and get rid of my column.

Here's the paper-

Charles 04_07_05 026

Well? I wrote many columns against the Irvings in that bi-weekly paper.

As a matter of Fact?

The story on my front website about J.K. views on sex? Go and read it? It was printed in my column.

I wrote a series- The Good < The Irvings> The bad < Irving Management > and the ugly < me >

It was in this Column-

Charles 04_07_05 027

Ok…I don’t really feel like writing but don’t forget if you’re going to Moncton in the morning? Send me an email! Now? I have a computer at home, I can check my emails anytime and I can also blog more often!

Please excuse the grammar of this Blog because I just write the darn thing and send it along the information Highway! Bye bye!

Tuesday, April 19, 2005


Don’t forget? If you have any views of the matter kids with ADHD should be treated in the classrooms?

Please let me know because I have to make a presentation to the committee who’s doing a study on inclusion in the school system on Friday morning at 9:00am!

One politician tried to have me believe that since this review is going on? They don’t have to do a study on Ritalin.

This has nothing to do with the issue of Ritalin!

This is a place for suggestions of how to treat or teach the kids with ADHD in a better atmosphere.

I really only have one comment?

Do you have any? Please send me an email at

Well? Once again, It has been quite a last 24 hours but I’ll get more on this issue in next week blog.
All I can say is where I have been living for the past year isn’t a good atmosphere.

I called the Environment people because of the smell of oil and other issues that I will get into next week.

The police were called twice to my place last night.

The caretaker wants me evicted because the fire Marshall walked in there last Friday < I called them > and the Government employee wasn’t too impressed.

The issue that I’m really concern of is I went to the Rentalsman office and Peter Kessels told me that Boarders or Roomers in this Province? They have no rights!

He did mentioned those racist members of the New Brunswick Human Rights Commission! Can you imagine me going to see those people???

I am trying to get to the bottom of this story!

The Fredericton Police Department tells me that he cannot just evict you if he doesn’t have just cause but the Rentalman office tells me that I have no rights!

They told me to get a lawyer!!! Excuse me? If you live in a small room? How can you afford a lawyer?

This issue have been going on for a long time and I guess that six people died while living in that House but I’ll get more information on this issue next week! Stay tune!!!

I might have to hitch a ride to Moncton for the Irving’s hearings? Anyone going from Fredericton to Moncton on Thursday?

Let me know. I would take a bus but unfortunately I have no money!!!

I was also told that Senator Joe Day and the Irvings are not hand in hand.

So I guess that he’s not an Irving Lobbyist in Ottawa.

But who truly knows? But I did find out something that only the would write about?

Last weekend, I decided to find out who was on the Transport and Communication Committee to study the Irving Monopoly of the Irvings in New Brunswick?

One name that grabbed my attention was Trenholme Counsell, Marilyn - Lib.


I know this Lady so maybe I could put my point across?

Well? I found out yesterday that her Daughter goes out with Jamie Irving who’s the publisher of the Telegraph Journal!

Personally, I always like Jamie but in this case?

But in this case? Wouldn’t you call this a conflict of Interest?

I just received an email from Ottawa and this is what they wrote-

My question

Could you please tell me the date and time I can appear in front of the Committee in Moncton? I need this info as soon as possible! You sent me an attachment but I couldn't open it!!!!!

Their answer

I believe it is on Thursday, April 21, 2005. The address is the Ramada Plaza Crystal Palace Hotel, Champlain Room, 499 Paul Street, Dieppe, New Brunswick.
The meeting starts at 1:00 p.m. with confirmed witnesses.
At 4:00 p.m. the meeting is open to any member of the public who wishes to make a presentation.
However, an individual must register first on-site before making his/her presentation. You are scheduled for
the 4 p.m. time slot - please register early - first come - first served.
Thank you.

Mirella Agostini
Administrative Assistant / Adjointe administrative
Committees Directorate / Direction des comités
The Senate / Le Sénat
Tel: (613) 990-2814 Fax: (613) 947-2104

My reprisal-

What is a confirm witness????

A few people told me that some individual have already gotten a time to speak? Why not me??? I am going to add you to my list so you know what's going on!!! What is a confirm witness???

Their reprisal-

The time slots were already filled some time ago (a confirmed, specific time and date). The only time available at this point is the 4 p.m. public presentation time for those members of the public who wish to make a presentation. The senators will be more than happy to hear from everyone. That is the point of their travelling to New Brunswick.
Please register on-site first. Thank you.

Mirella Agostini
Administrative Assistant /

I wrote back asking her - Who are these so-call confirm witness but I never received any further email. Keep an eye on this blog for more info!!

So? I guess these confirm witness are more powerful than the average New Brunswickers.

Will the Senate allow concern citizens like me to speak or will they say that I only have a few minutes?

Will they be bored of all the presentations that were made all day long?

I don’t like this one bit because I phoned them around one month ago and I was suppose to be given a date and time but this is not the case.

Maybe its because there’s a conflict of Interest in this case? Maybe someone told the Senate not to allow me to speak? You know what? We haven’t seen absolutely nothing in the media about these hearings. It’s the first time in 30 years the Irving’s newspapers are investigated and New Brunswickers should have the right to know what’s going on?

I have all my questions and comments written down and I won’t put them in this blog because I don’t wish the Irvings to know what I’m going to say?

Yes, the Irvings! I paste my email to J.D. IRVING.COM and I really don’t care what they think about me because I know for a fact that I do speak the truth on the issue of Newspapers.

My column with my questions will appear in the River Valley News next week!

The River Valley News came out with nice colors pictures on its cover. They’re not owned by the Irvings and it’s only one of very few newspapers in the Province the Irvings have no control over!

This paper was also the first newspaper on line on the net! But lately they haven’t upgraded their website! Their website is

Yesterday, a few bureaucrats told me that the Lord Government blocked my pictures on my blog!

I went and had a look and they sure did.

The one that I pasted about the Irving’s bureaucrats was blocked!

A picture inside the blog- Bernard Lord had an easy ride! You can locate that picture in the April Achieves. A nice picture of Bernard Lord and myself.

Go have a look and tell me if you can see the pictures?

Why would the Government blocked me?

Do you mean that I’m such a good looking guy that you can call my pictures porn??? Lol….


Ok…more in the morning…please please please excuse excuse excuse the Grammar of this update because I am in a hurry and I just write the darn thing and send it along the information Highway! Bye bye


Ok..As we all know by my poor grammaire. Ils a beaucoup de personnes de la Population Acadienne qui visite ce site! Many Acadians are visiting this site so therefore I decided to paste Jean Marie Column every Tuesday! Enjoy!!!!

Parfaire les relations Acadie-Québec

Il est regrettable de trouver encore en Acadie du « Québec bashing », soit l’expression d’un certain rejet et d’un certain dénigrement des Québécois et Québécoises. On pourrait dire, en contrepartie, qu’ils n’agissent pas mieux, en continuant à faire montre d’ignorance , d’arrogance et d’indifférence à l’égard des Acadiens et Francophones de ce pays. Il y aurait pourtant moyens de se dire nos quatre vérités, sans passer par le dénigrement ! Nous sommes trop peu de Francophones en Amérique du nord pour nous permettre le luxe de s’entre-déchirer. Au contraire, nous avons tout intérêt à nous parler dans le casque afin de mieux identifier nos divergences et célébrer nos convergences.

Toutes les raisons du monde peuvent expliquer ce genre d’attitude. Plusieurs Acadiens et Francophones ont commencé à rejeter les Québécois à partir du milieu des années 60, quand ceux-ci se sont engagés sur la voie de l’indépendance, ou à tout le moins, vers une plus grande autonomie. Beaucoup d’Acadiens ont considéré ce mouvement comme une traîtrise, un abandon. On se demandait comment, au Canada, l’Acadie et les francophones pourraient survivre sans La belle province ? Déjà, à cette époque, ce questionnement légitime devenait un prétexte pour se distancer des Québécois d’un côté , et, de l’autre, pour les implorer de rester dans le Canada à n’importe quel prix. On ne voulait pas voir le Québec se séparer, et on les maudissait tous pour oser y penser.

Chez nous, certains les enviaient de pouvoir accéder éventuellement un jour à l’indépendance, pendant que d’autres n’osaient à peine envisager une Acadie plus autonome. Malgré tout, il s’est développé ici un certain mouvement autonomiste avec la création du Parti Acadien, par exemple. D’une manière ou d’une autre, je ne crois pas qu’il puisse y avoir un jour une indépendance pure et dure au Québec. Mais je crois que le Québec deviendra un jour sous une forme quelconque, un pays dépendant, non pas indépendant, à l’instar de ce que deviennent de plus en plus tous les pays du monde actuellement . Il n’y a qu’à penser à l’Europe d’aujourd’hui.

Nos systèmes d’éducation, des deux côtés de la frontière, ont tous les deux raté le coche en n’enseignant pas l’histoire, passée et moderne, de nos deux peuples. Sur ce plan , nous sommes aussi fautifs les uns que les autres. Ce vide « historique » ne peut que faire l’affaire du Canada anglais. En effet, peu de gens dans les communautés acadiennes et francophones savent mesurer les liens organiques qui nous unissent. Comme francophones d’Amérique, reconnaissons que nous sommes les principaux responsables de cet état de fait.

Cette rancœur est alimentée quotidiennement par la télévision. Devenue la principale courroie de transmissions des connaissances entre nos deux peuples, la télé que nous regardons est avant tout québécoise. On y voit surtout du Québécois, pour ne pas dire du Montréalais, ce qui banalise notre existence. La télévision nationale de Radio-Canada et son appendice RDI ont fait de valeureux efforts ces dernières années pour corriger le tir, mais le déséquilibre est toujours présent. Quant aux réseaux de télévisions que sont TVA,TQS et TQ, elles restent résolument québécoises. Je pourrais faire une petite exception pour TVA qui, dans les régions du Nord-ouest et du Nord-est du Nouveau-Brunswick, diffuse des bulletins régionaux de nouvelles et fait quelques sorties au niveau des variétés. Comment pourrait-on oublier que c’est TVA qui a engendré le phénomène Wilfred Lebouthillier ? Heureusement, il y a aussi TFO, qui elle n’a pas peur de nous identifier comme étant l’Acadie !

Et le scandale des commandites, maintenant ! On ne ratera pas cette occasion pour alimenter injustement les sentiments anti-québécois. Nous avons tendance à généraliser et à faire des amalgames. Combien d’entre-nous ne tarderont pas à conclure que tous les politiciens québécois sont des corrompus ? Quant à pousser la logique, combien concluront tout simplement que tous les Québécois sont corrompus, ou que tous les politiciens, québécois ou pas, le sont aussi ?

Il est vrai aussi que le régime désastreux du gouvernement Charest n’aide pas à projeter une image positive du Québec. Il est en train de dilapider l’héritage social-démocrate de cette province. Pourtant sans être un gauchiste, on peut apprécier historiquement les vertus progressistes du Québec avec ses programmes de garderies universelles et accessibles, l’équité salariale pour les femmes, le meilleur système d’accessibilité aux études post-secondaires, une loi anti-briseur de grève, le Fonds de solidarité du Québec, et la liste peut continuer encore longtemps. Ils payent un peu plus de taxes , mais ils ont plus souvent que autrement de meilleurs services. Tant que Charest ne comprendra pas que le modèle à suivre est chez lui, et non pas en Ontario, en Alberta et surtout pas au Nouveau-Brunswick, il continuera à voguer en eaux troubles. Le modèle québécois, dans ce qu’il a de bon, devrait aussi nous inspirer.

Il y a par ailleurs des voies de communications naturelles et humaines entre Québécois et Acadiens qui doivent être appréciées. Beaucoup de commerce se fait entre nous. Il y a de plus en plus d’échanges culturels et artistiques, insuffisants cependant au goût de plusieurs personnes, et je serais de celles-là. On fait de plus en plus de sport ensemble, la Ligue du hockey majeure du Québec étant présente à Bathurst, Moncton, et bientôt Saint-Jean. De jeunes québécois fréquentent nos institutions post-secondaires. Le tourisme québécois est devenu depuis ces dernières années notre plus grande source de touristes. Tout cela est bon et crée des liens.

Au delà des irritants politiques, les gouvernements du Québec et du Nouveau-Brunswick, de même que les organisations des deux sociétés civiles, doivent intensifier leurs relations. Ne sommes-nous pas les deux seuls regroupements francophones en Amérique qui se définissent chacun comme peuple distinct ? Que le Québec devienne indépendant ou non un jour, il restera toujours notre voisin. On a tout intérêt à bonifier nos rapports et à parfaire nos connaissances des uns et des autres, même si ce n’était qu’au nom de la solidarité des francophonies d’Amérique. Pour ce faire, nous devons de part et d’autre faire preuve de plus de respect et d’ouverture d’esprit.
Jean-Marie Nadeau

Monday, April 18, 2005


I’ve just received an email from the individual who is supposed to drive me to Moncton on Thursday.

I have to give this person a call. I hope this individual didn’t change their mind in attending this very important hearing?

Ok..yesterday afternoon was pretty interesting.

I noticed the hits to my blog site were coming in huge numbers. I really didn’t know what was going on?

I made a little search and someone wrote in a local Website this note-

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: This
is why I don't work for Irving . . .

I just thought I'd share this. I usually don't pay any attention to Charles LeBlanc's spam, but this is pretty interesting. Not sure how much truth there is
to this, but it certainly doesn't surprise me.

Now, the tally of original [here] staff who have quit/left/been fired since the buyout ... Matt, Judith, Ingrid, Patrick, Jud, Mark, Josh, Mike (I
think that's it) ... EIGHT! Keep in mind, we had a pretty small staff to start with.

Then is was followed by

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject:
By reading his blog, you can tell that he's got ADHD. By comparing the present situation in New Bunswick to Germany, you can tell he's an idiot.

And then

Oh, I'm not saying you should read Charles' blog. It's terrible. This guy is a nut. And he can't even spell. BUT this was the only place I could find any info
about Mike Parker's "dismissal."

I always delete Charles LeBlanc's spam. I only happened upon this entry after a coworker brought it to my attention.

And more

is charles leblanc french? because his english stinks.

My feelings are hurt!!!…lol….. Seriously? These words don’t bother me one bite but I do have a huge problem when they say - He cannot write!!! His English stinks!!!

Well? I know for a fact that my English stinks and yes also my grammar.

You have to understand that I’m using a public computer and I just write the darn blog and send it along the information Highway!

There’s many people who leaves comments and their grammar is terrible.


We live in a very sad stake of affair once we make fun of a person writing skills!

Does it mean that only so call professionals are allowed to voice their views?

Remember the Mike Gaudet story? < citizen of the week! > I saw Mike last Saturday and the first statement he told me was that my grammar was terrible!

He beat me by one second because I was going to tell him the same thing!

I always take a print out of the blog and read it at my place!

On many many many occasions? I would get angry at myself because of the poor grammar!

To you people out there with bad grammar? We welcome you to this site! Everyone from different level of education is allowed to write their views on issues!

We will not make fun of you!!!

Ok…never mind that issue!!!

If you cannot make it to Moncton for the hearing of the Senate Committee to
look into the Irving newspapers Monopoly in this Province?

You can send them an email at

The members are-

Fraser, Joan Chair - Lib.
Tkachuk, David Deputy-Chair - C
Carney, Pat - C
Chaput, Maria- Lib.
Eyton, John Trevor - C
Johnson, Janis G. - C
Merchant, Pana - Lib.
Munson, Jim - Lib.
Phalen, Gerard A. - Lib.
Trenholme Counsell, Marilyn - Lib.

Also check this site about the Irvings? Very interesting- stroll down!!!!

Ok….I wrote enough already about nothing! Excuse the style and Grammar of this update because I just the darn thing and send it along the information

Bye Bye


Hi Charles,

I came across your site doing much research into Ritalin overdrugging of our kids.

I am glad I ran into you. I am fighting my own war with the school here in Manitoba regarding my on.

It's really.

I have been reading info like a driven maniac on this disorder for years and have come to the conclusion that our country has gone nuts! At least in the US Bush just signed a bill to stop the forcing ..cohersing..and diagnoses of students by teachers etc.

If you havn't read the bill it yet I would be happy to send it to you. Signed Dec 4th /04.

The US is halting their over-precription of Ritilin and we in Canada are prescribing it more and more.

Shame on Canada! Shame on the schools !

My son is off the crap now for a year but the school is punishing us both for being defiant.

I reallY need to talk to you's a sick place where I live. Lots of foster children who have no say are having prozac..ritalin and sleeping pills all in the same day shoved down their throats.

The labeling is disgusting and it's on the rise because there is a whitch-hunt here to label these kids and the easiet way to do that is get them on Ritalin.

The schools get up to 20,000. bucks per kid in this catagorey. The more kids they can label the more money the school district can get. It's disgusting that our kids have price tags on their and parents have to agree to the crap and sign disclosure forms just to get extra help for their kid if he's dropping in grades.

Phone me please..more to tell you and can't do here ..

name ????? phone number ..???-???-????

Sunday, April 17, 2005


There’s one issue that bothers me. < Of course there's many issues >

When I appear in front of the Senate Committee this Thursday!


Charles 04_07_05 079

Will Senator Joe Day protect the Irving's interest in Ottawa?

Senator Joe Day has a lot of clout in the Capital!

Who’s Senator Joe Day you asked?

He used to be an Irving's Lawyer before he became a Senator. I suppose he had to dedicate his life and soul to the Irving Empire so therefore he will continue to look after the Irvings Interest in Ottawa.

Maybe this is the reason he was appointed to that position in the first place????

So why bother to make a presentation?

The Irvings have their paid bureaucrats in Fredericton. < Look at the picture > therefore the so-call normal New Brunswickers have no rights whatsoever!

They have control of those racists members of the New Brunswick Human Rights Commission so therefore New Brunswickers cannot speak out!

On a beautiful Sunday sunny afternoon! My question is this?

What can we do? Do you have an answer for me? Please let me know!!!

Saturday, April 16, 2005


What a beautiful day out there and it’s really too nice to write an update but here it goes anyway!

My God? I have to learn to read my blog before posting the darn thing. The Grammar is terrible.

The sun is indeed shining and do you know when the citizens in Fredericton know when summer is officially here?

Take a look at the picture.

Charles 04_07_05 101

I noticed this area of snow last spring. This location is situated where the sun cannot melt the snow because of the huge buildings in the area.

Take a close look around the area? The snow is all gone but this little spot!

Once that snow disappears? Summer is officially here!!!!!

The sad part of this picture is the parking garage located in the background.

This is the location where a few homeless people sleeps in the evenings.

All they need is a cardboard to separate their body from the cold cement floor.

Once again, I was upset this morning. No Irving columnist wrote about the Senate Transport and Communication committee coming to Moncton on April 21st!

Nothing in the Irving’s paper! I wonder why? Well? I received two emails asking me the location and date of the hearings?

If two strangers hunts me down to asked me these questions? This tells me they are concern of the Irving monopoly on newspapers in this Province.

Once again, here’s the information

Dear Mr. Leblanc:

The hearings on Thursday, April 21st will be held at the following

Champlain Room
Ramada Plaza Crystal Palace Hotel
499 Paul Street
Dieppe, New Brunswick
E1A 6S5

Beginning at approximately 3:15 p.m. there will be an opportunity to
make presentations of about 4-5 minutes, which will be followed by a
period for questions. A participant must register before appearing.
Registration will begin in the morning. Thank you.

Mirella Agostini
Administrative Assistant / Adjointe administrative
Committees Directorate / Direction des comités
The Senate / Le Sénat
Tel: (613) 990-2814 Fax: (613) 947-2104

Now you know!!!! Anyone out there going to make a presentation? Let me know.

In today's < Saturday > newspapers? These Irving’s columnists should have wrote about this very important hearing but they didn’t! We all know if they wrote in support of the hearings on the Irvings?

They would be fired on the spot and since the Irvings owns 90% of the newspapers in this Province? They will not be able to find employment in this line of work!!!

Yes, summer is around the corner and I do believe that the hits on this blog site are going to go downwards because people are too busy doing other things in their lives during the hot summer months but the blogging will definitely continue for years to come.

I saw Mike Gaudet < panhandler > and he told me that he received many comments from my story a few days ago and that’s a good thing! < Not in words but change wise! >

Remember the blog I wrote about being assaulted? Well? While walking in the City last evening? I saw Joanne walking across the street and I walked by her and asked her how she was feeling?

I gave her a smoke and two blocks later? That guy Pat crossed the street and once again began shouting at me. He always calls me retarded!

Mind you, I didn't make a run for it. I just let the guy shout and continue slowly on my walk!

From what I’m told, the Fredericton Police Department allows this guy to assault anyone he wishes!

I heard a few stories but I will tell you one thing right now! The next time this guy touched me? I am calling the Police and lets see what’s going to happen? No one in this Province or country should be above the law! An Assault is an assault!!!

Law enforcement shouldn’t allow a guy like this assault anyone he sees fit! I got to be careful but a person never knows?

I volunteer my time at the Kitchen and I don’t plan to let a lunatic assault me and get away with it!

I was told the Government or the Health Standing Committee could form a committee to study the issue of Ritalin.

After thinking about? I believe the people on the committee believe that I’m just a fool and are playing games with me.

I remember when I was on a 12 days hunger strike in the summer of 2002. Amanda Harpelle from the Premier office came to my tent and chatted with me.

She showed me a piece of paper telling me a group of bureaucrats did indeed do a study on the issue of Ritalin in the year 2001.

I’m certain she believed that I was going to say - Ohh that’s ok! I’m going home now!

Same goes for those politicians serving on the Health Standing Committee? These are the MLA'S-

Select Committee on Health Care
• Mr. Williams (C)
• Mr. Sherwood (VC)
• Mr. Stiles
• Mr. C. LeBlanc
• Mr. Holder
• Mr. Carr
• Mr. Malley • Mr. Albert
• Mr. R. Boudreau
• Mr. Kennedy
• Mr. V. Boudreau
• Ms. Weir

Maybe they believed I was going to say- Oh it’s not the mandate for the Government to do a study on Ritalin? Ok…The battle is over! I’ll leave you alone now!
Sorry! Not going to happen!

We need MLA’S who’s not afraid to speak out on behalf of the 10,000 kids in this province. The drugging and killing of our children must come to a stop!

My God? Over 800 words already??? Please excuse the style and grammar of this update because I just write the darn thing and send it along the information Highway!

If you’re still with me? I watched a show on Larry King Live a few evenings ago and I pasted the show on this blog. I found the show very interesting! If you care to read it? You know that I always said- There's a reason for everything! I'm a strong believer on that one!!!

Here it is!!! Bye bye

What Happens After We Die?
Aired April 14, 2005 - 21:00 ET

LARRY KING, HOST: What happens after we die? Tonight we explore the ultimate mystery with spiritual leaders from many faiths.
Joining us, John MacArthur, evangelical Christian pastor of Grace Community Church in Southern California, best-selling author and host of the Global Medium Ministry Grace to You. Father Michael Manning, Roman Catholic priest, host of the international program "The Word in the World." Representing Judaism, Rabbi Marvin Hier, the dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Muslim scholar Dr. Maher Hathout, a retired physician and senior adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Mary Ann Williamson, best-selling author and lecturer on spirituality. And Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists.

The next world, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's going to happen to everybody. And we all wonder about it. When will it happen, what will it be like? And, of course, what happens after? We're going to try to piece together those questions tonight, especially with death so much in the news.

Lately the only dying I know that comes back is a comic who dies one night and then the audience respects him and he returns for the second show. Other than that, I don't know what happens. But these guests might. So we'll start with John MacArthur and the opinion of each of them, representing their own opinions or their faiths.

John MacArthur, what happens had you die?

JOHN MACARTHUR, PASTOR, GRACE COMMUNITY CHURCH: Well, when you die, you go to one of two places. According to scripture. You go out of the presence of God forever, or you go into the presence of God forever.

KING: Depending?

MACARTHUR: Depending upon your personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which is according to the Bible the only way to enter heaven.

KING: So therefore a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist will not go to heaven?

MACARTHUR: Christian theology and the scripture says that only through faith in Jesus Christ.

KING: And you -- when we say what happened, what happens? Do you go somewhere as a body? MACARTHUR: No, your body stays. We go to the funeral. We see the body. It goes into the grave. It decays. Your spirit immediately goes either in the presence of God or out, waiting the final resurrection. There will be a resurrection of all bodies in the end, a resurrection unto life or a resurrection unto damnation.

KING: Father Manning, what happens when you die?

FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST: I think we're going to encounter God. I find God the one that I'm longing for. I'm longing for truth. I'm longing for honesty. I'm longing for peace. I'm longing for love. And it's very incomplete in this world. And I believe that moving into heaven into the experience of God will be the fullness of that.

KING: You will meet him in what form?

MANNING: I don't know. I'm going to be a spiritual form. I'm not going to have a body. It's -- we talk of spirits when we speak of angels and so there's a reality of something there. We say that I'll see God and I'm not going to have eyes like I had, but there will be a knowledge. There will be a completeness of all of these longings that I've had to be able to be now satisfied in the presence of God.

KING: Rabbi Hier, what will happen when you die?

MARVIN HIER, FOUNDER, SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER: When you die, God created Adam, escorted him into the Garden of Eden. When he sinned, he took him out of the Garden of Eden. But God never destroyed the Garden of Eden and held up the hope that people who live righteously, with righteous conduct, go to the eternal world, the world of the soul.

And admission to that world is based on righteous conduct and not based on any specific religion. A righteous person of any religion and a righteous person who may, in the fact, be irreligious...

KING: You mean atheist?

HIER: ... would be granted because it is determined by deeds.

KING: And what is heaven like?

HIER: Well, to tell you the truth, no one has been there, and it would be all speculation. You know, it's the world of the soul. And the best expression of that is, you know, my monadi (ph) says that when a person, a young man -- a person is born blind, he's prepared to take an oath that there is no color in the world. But there is color.

But my monadi (ph) says he can't see it because he's not in that world and we can't see the world of the spirit.

KING: Dr. Maher Hut -- Maher Hathout, I'm sorry, the Muslim scholar, what do Muslims believe happens when you die?

DR. MAHER HATHOUT, MUSLIM SCHOLAR: We really do believe that when we die, the spirit would be liberated from the limitations of the body.

KING: And?

HATHOUT: And then it will go through eternity after a process of accountability and judgment. And people will go to heaven in eternity or to face consequences of punishment.

KING: Like hell?

HATHOUT: Like hell. And this depends on the good deeds, on the belief in God, and on the belief on accountability, that every person is responsible and is accountable for what he or she will do during this earthly life.

KING: And this going will be in the spiritual sense?

HATHOUT: It has to be because the body is decaying, as we heard. And then the spirit, which is energy, will be unadmitted (ph), uncontained and will be completely liberated.

KING: Mary Ann, what do you think happens?

MARY ANN WILLIAMSON, AUTHOR/LECTURER ON SPIRITUALITY: I agree with what Father Manning said, that all of the love that we've longed for all of our lives, we find it. We're there. I think that only love is real. And we can see it once we've died.

I think that this earth is like a veil of illusion. The mortal mind obfuscates the spiritual truth, which is the love of God. And I think that when we die, the veil falls down, the filter is gone, and we're in that state of pure love which is God.

KING: And it's not -- it's in a spirit state, right?

WILLIAMSON: Yes, I mean...

KING: Not a physical state.

WILLIAMSON: ... You can apply -- yes, of course, not the physical state. But all concepts like where do we go, space and time don't exist in God's eternity. So it's a state of awareness and knowledge and experience of pure love, which is God, which is the true life.

I think at death we find that. And I think that we long for that all our lives and at death we find it. It's a reward. It's not a punishment.

KING: Ellen Johnson, president of the American Atheists, what do you believe happens?

ELLEN JOHNSON, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN ATHEISTS: The atheist accepts the reality that when you die, that is the end. That is it. Therefore when you're living, life is all we can ever know. We can't know death. Death is a nonsense word. So we have to do our part now to make this a better life for ourselves and for the rest of humanity and all of the life on this planet.

The only fulfillment, the only joy, the only happiness you will ever know is right now. Now is the time to do your part and to enjoy life. And it's a very, very good thing, because we don't take any moment for granted for that very reason.

KING: What do you mean by nonsense word?

JOHNSON: Because we cannot know death. We can only know life. So therefore, what are we talking about?

KING: It is, John MacArthur, is it not a guess on your -- an educated guess based on your scriptures, your reading, your faith, but you don't know. You don't know know, do you? How can you know?

MACARTHUR: Because the Bible says so.

KING: But you believe the Bible?

MACARTHUR: Well, I believe the Bible, but I believe the Bible can be defended. I believe through the centuries the Bible has stood the test of intense scrutiny, and it is the real and true revelation of God, and it speaks truly about life and death. And someone has been there and come back, and that's Jesus Christ.

KING: How come only one?

MACARTHUR: How come only one what?

KING: Person ever come back?

MACARTHUR: Well, that's because the design of leaving this world is to go into the eternal world. The only person who came from the eternal world into this world is Jesus Christ.

There have been a few others, by the way. In fact in the Old Testament, the prophets raised a few from the dead. In the New Testament, Jesus and the apostles raised a few from the dead. And at the death of Christ on the cross, the graves were open and some were raised. And that's indicative of the fact that there will be an actual physical resurrection to join with the spirits that are with God at death.

KING: Isn't it true, Father Manning, that all religion is really based -- if we didn't die there'd be no religion. All religion is based on fear of dying?

MANNING: Certainly very important. Not in this...

KING: Be good and you'll be...

MANNING: The hope of fulfillment of all the things I'm longing for. In many ways I'm trying to get to -- I believe what the scripture says. But why am I so afraid of death? And why is there this longing to live forever?

KING: You don't know.

MANNING: No, no. But I'm just -- this urge, this longing that I have somehow speaks of a truth that I can't deny. I can't deny that life will go on and on.

KING: We'll get the comments from everybody. Including your phone calls. We'll be right back.


KING: Dr. Hathout, you wanted to add?

HATHOUT: I'd like to say two things. No. 1, we don't rule out physical selection by any means. It is -- it is interest there.

However, I want to comment on death is a nonsense word. It is the most real word of the birth. We know that we are born. We know we are going to die. To just write it off as nonsense is somehow...

KING: Well, because the atheists -- I don't want to put words in her mouth, but they believe it's all over. It's a nonsense word in that nothing happens afterward.

HATHOUT: Sure, everybody is entitled to believe whatever they want. But the reality is death is a very real thing. And we have reasons more than the scriptures to believe that this is not the end of the story.

At least scientifically, we know that energy does not disappear. Energy is always there. This is a scientific reality. And if the body is physical and the soul is energy, it cannot disappear.

KING: As a doctor have you seen people die?

HATHOUT: More than what I care for.

KING: Do you have thoughts that they go somewhere when you watch this?

HATHOUT: I always felt that a chapter is over, that we turned off a light on that house that is called the body. And I always felt that is just me. There must be a part of the equation that is not revealed.

KING: Ellen, don't you want these people in your heart? Don't you want them to be right? Wouldn't you like to go somewhere? Do you want it all to just end when you're 89?

JOHNSON: Yes. I don't want...

KING: You do want it to end?

JOHNSON: Yes. I don't want to...

KING: Would you be sad if you woke up somewhere?

JOHNSON: I'd be sad if I what?

KING: You die and suddenly you find you're somewhere nice and peaceful.

JOHNSON: No, no. That's...

KING: ... you'd be pissed.

JOHNSON: That's not going to happen. That's the reality. And I'm not going to live my life in order to, you know -- about concerned with death. Life is for living, and I'm not living my life for death.

And I can't accept something because I think the outcome is -- I can't accept something that's not believable because I think the outcome is desirable. It's not believable. It's not acceptable. When you die, that's it.

But that's the reality. It is what it is. So let's deal with it. Let's deal with death, the way we deal with everything else in life, with dignity, and move on. And at the same time, try and prolong life so that we can extend what we have.

KING: Do you think, Rabbi Hier, in your heart more people think the way Ellen thinks -- they don't say it. They go to church. They go to synagogue. But in their heart they think she's right?

HIER: I have no doubt that people contemplate that. People are -- you know, human beings are human.

But I would say this: the question was posed before whether we know for sure. Well if God would clue everybody in on all his secrets and he'd say, "Look this is the way the plan works," then there would be no belief. There would be no faith.

God created an imperfect world and he needed a partner, man. And he said to man, will you help me repair this world? And make it a better world? But he did not tell man all of his secrets as to how does death work. So there will be natural doubt. Of course there will be doubt.

KING: If you could go back to ancient times, that's a safe thing to say. They asks the seers of the time, what happens when you die? They don't have an answer.

HIER: No one really has an answer.

KING: So you say it's God's -- God's mystery. It's a copout.

HIER: That's correct. No, it's not a copout.

KING: Not a copout?

HIER: No. Because God created man from dust of the ground. And dust of the earth. And God can do whatever he wants. But in this world there is a purpose to this world and that is God didn't want to do it alone. And he wanted man, as I said before, a partner and therefore there's a mystery. He didn't clue man in on all of the secrets. Because otherwise there'd be no purpose to believe.

KING: Mary Ann, isn't that a safe thing to say? It makes you feel good?

WILLIAMSON: Well, first of all, the fact that something makes you feel good hardly means that it's less true.

All the great religious systems speak about life after death, speak about the fact that the goodness with which we live our lives -- you know when Ellen talks about how important it is to live well on the earth, the great religious systems agree with her. Life is for the living.

And it's not that we are to concentrate on death rather than life. It's that while we live loving lives and try our best to be the people that God would have us be, then after we die, and also while we're on this earth, I think that the condition of the state of God's love isn't as different after as it is -- as we think.

You know, the course of miracle (ph) says birth is not a beginning but a continuation. And death is not an end but a continuation. I think in a very real sense death doesn't exist. The spirit, the more we are in a consciousness of the spirit, the less we will feel the dropping of the physical body as a fundamental shift in our state of being.

JOHNSON: However -- however, to Mr. MacArthur, the price for eternal life and life after death is obedience to church doctrine. So you must live a certain life in preparation for that life after death. That I totally reject. I am not going to...


KING: What do you think?

MACARTHUR: I reject that completely.

JOHNSON: There is a way to get...

KING: Hold it, hold it, Ellen. What is -- you said you have to believe in Christ.

MACARTHUR: Well, yes -- the only way to heaven -- and at this point I respectfully disagree with the rabbi. Nobody can live a righteous life. The Bible says that no one can obey the law of God. No one.

KING: So no one is going to heaven?

MACARTHUR: So no one can go to heaven on their own merits or on their own works. I don't care how many good works they do. The New Testament is crystal clear on the fact that...

KING: So a bad guy who believes in Christ, he's going to heaven. And the good guy who doesn't is going to hell.

MACARTHUR: But when he truly believes...

KING: It's unjust.

MACARTHUR: But when he truly believes -- Larry, we don't want justice. Justice...

You don't want justice?

MACARTHUR: No. It sends everybody to hell. We need grace. We need forgiveness. We need mercy. Only those who ask...

When you need grace, first of all where you take an exam, not everybody has to get 100. It's preposterous to think that when you say righteous conduct you mean perfect specimens.

Human beings are not perfect specimens. In God's world, they will be accepted to eternity or eternal heaven if they pass the exam. What's a passing grade in heaven? I don't know. Maybe 67 and not 65. But the fact of the matter is if you -- if you live the decent life that is credible, you don't have to be perfect.

KING: Let me get a break and come right back. I hope it's 51. We'll be right back.


KING: Father Manning, if there is a better place a coming why are we so sad when people die? Unless it ' just selfish that we miss them?

MANNING: I think it's selfishness. Because I think I...

KING: We should be happy for them, right?

MANNING: I rely on the conversation that I could have with the person...

KING: It's you, not them.

MANNING: So I -- in the Catholic liturgy, we have two stages of it. One is a wake service, which is really a time for crying. Just opening up our hearts and saying this really hurts me.

But then on the mass of resurrection, which is the mass of burial, everybody wears white. And we sing songs and we say, yes, it's victory. So it's a one, two thing.

Yes, I want to -- I need to cry. We've got to cry. But I'm never going let the crying overcome me because I've got to have that victory of life.

KING: How do Muslims explain the death of a child?

HATHOUT: Well, the death, as we said, is not the end of life. So he just finished that chapter early enough. And it is sad for his parents and for his relatives, but I think I agree after a period of mourning and the grieving, we start -- because the Koran saying is when it happens, say to God we belong and to God we all shall return. So this is really soothing and very reassuring that this is not the end of that person.

KING: Do you think religion, Rabbi, talks about that too much?

HIER: I think that in Judaism we're encouraged not to speak too much about death, because we have only a sketch. We don't have a blueprint. We have a hint about what the world -- what the world that follows this is like.

And the fear is that if people concentrate on it, they become like interior decorators that want to design their home and in heaven. And you have a lot of fanatics today in the world, extremists, that they say heaven sounds so good, let's exit life right now so we can have our palaces and 70 virgins. And that is a tragedy, so therefore we should not concentrate too much about that which we know very little about.

HATHOUT: There is no doubt that the religion is for life, even the Koran says respond to God when he calls you to life. But based on what we do with this life, we hope that our eternity will be determined.

KING: Ellen, what keeps an atheist going if she or he will never be judged?

JOHNSON: Well, we get judged by our fellow human beings. We must obey human laws. We are social animals. And we want to live in a society in which is comfortable to live in it, in a world in which people do terrible things, that would be a terrible place in which to live.

We -- the normal healthy human being is happy in the face of happiness and sad in the face of sadness. I don't think it -- you know, I have to ask the question if you think that there is a God who will forgive you for what you have done wrong, how can you be ethical in that sense? We know that we have to do our part right here and now and answer to our fellow human beings.

But I also want to add, when we talk about death, these gentlemen did mention the fact that -- you brought it up, why do we fight at the very end to stay alive? We have this will to live. I think we humans know that death is the end of it. We fight it. We all fight it. Religious people fight it, too. And in fact, this will to live, this imperative is part of our genes, our bodies fight to live all the time.

KING: Isn't that a good point, Mary Ann? Why do we fight it? Why the whole Terri Schiavo story? Why this fight of the life. Death is a good place.

WILLIAMSON: Well, even with the Terri Schiavo story, though, Larry, the idea was was her death part of the natural arc of her existence, which her husband claimed, or was it not, as her parents claimed.

This spiritual position here is that there is an arc of life and we are on the earth for the time that God chooses. And there are many people who die fighting it. And there are many people who die in a state of grace, a state of acceptance and a state of knowing that there is a great light that they're coming into.

I mean, we are in this mortal body, so of course we have a fear. I think a lot of people, what I felt and I think a lot of people feel is not really a fear of death, but a fear of dying. You know, just abstractly many of us feel it's a greater life on some level, it's a clearer spiritual experience, a greater closeness with God. But we are in this mortal body, and it's the dying itself that I think creates more of a resistance.

KING: Billy Graham told me, sure, if he was going down in an airplane, he'd be scared, scared of pain, but not of dying. Scared of the method of dying.

MACARTHUR: Absolutely.

KING: You're frightened, aren't you, of dying?

MACARTHUR: Well, I think the pain is realistic. I don't want to go through some kind of torturous extreme. But going down in an airplane would be a novel way for me to go immediately to heaven.

And my Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord far better to depart and be with Christ. This is my hope.

I have no fear of dying itself. I have no fear of death. It was five years ago that I was near death in the critical care unit with blood clots all over both lungs. And the truth of the matter is, eight days later when I came out I had a disappointment because I felt like I was ready to see my Lord and I was ready to enter into all that God prepared for them that love him.

And I -- not that I don't love my wife and my kids and enjoy the riches, I was made for social life. I was made for relationships, and that's why I hang on here. And I was made to be used by God. And I want to serve him as long as he wants me here. But I'm ready to go to heaven whenever he sends the word.

HATHOUT: I'm afraid that this is based on a very serious assumption, that I'm so good, I live the perfect life, when I die I go heaven. I still have to see someone who can make this statement without blinking.

MACARTHUR: Can I respond to you? That is a very good statement to make. And you know what? You'll never meet that person, because that person who can earn heaven by himself does not exist. Only one person ever lived a perfect life. That's Jesus Christ. Listen to this. This is Christianity. He imputes his life to the believer in Christian.

KING: All of you believe -- all of you believe this. HIER: That what?

JOHNSON: Believe what, Larry?

KING: That you're going somewhere? All of you believe it except Ellen?


WILLIAMSON: I believe we are.

KING: Do all of you believe God has a plan for when you're going? God knows when you're going? So God knew about 9/11?


KING: He did. OK. When we come back, we'll ask why did he let it go. We'll also include your phone calls. Don't go away.


KING: Let's reintroduce our panel, answer the question about 9/11, get to some calls. John MacArthur, evangelical Christian, pastor, teacher at Grace Community Church, author and host of "Grace to You."

Father Michael Manning, the Roman Catholic Priest, Society of the Divine World, host of the "Word and the World."

Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Dr. Mayor Hathout, retired physician, Muslim scholar, senior adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council.

In Detroit, is Mary Ann Williamson, best-selling author, lecturer on spirituality. Her most recent book is "The Gift Of Change: Spiritual Guidance for a Radically New Life."

And in New York City is Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists.

Before we go to some calls, we'll start with Father Manning. If God knows when it is going to happen, why he did let 9/11 happen?

MANNING: I'm not sure that in my mind God has this overall plan that that was there. I believe that God is a God of now. And he was continually working with these people that were ready to fly into that plane, trying his best as he could with all of the grace that he had to avert them from something terrible like that.

I don't see God saying, oh, yes, OK, let's teach those people in that building, or let's get something out of this. No. God is continually working for justice and power with every human being at every moment, pushing us on to something more.

KING: Mary Ann, why did they die, those innocent people?

WILLIAMSON: Well, I agree with what was just said, that God was working with all of the people who perpetrated the act. But I also believe that God gave us free will. And God himself will not violate that law.

At the same time I think that 9/11, and any tragedy such as that, does not come out of a vacuum. And there are many ways that all of us have to look into our hearts about what each of us might have contributed to create a world in which such things as this are happening at all.

So I think that all of us have to ask a little bit more about the darkness in our own hearts. And how we might not do everything we can to make this world what it should be.

KING: Rabbi Hier, if it is possibly a better place why is death a tragedy?

HIER: Well, we feel as human beings -- a great Jewish philosopher, Joseph Albo said the following, "a human being is on a vessel in turbulent seas. And he's tremendously frightened, because of the conditions of the ocean. And he sticks close to the vessel until the vessel hits -- until the vessel docks. When the vessel docks, he says the man walks right off the vessel and perfectly adjusts to a new environment and lost his fear." We fear that which we do not know. But when the vessel docks, and we're shown that world we'll just walk off there and say, wow.

KING: Don't you question it, John MacArthur -- when 9/11 occurs -- don't you question your faith?

MACARTHUR: No, I don't question my faith.

KING: The guys who took the plane into the building didn't question theirs either. And they....

MACARTHUR: I don't like that association too well.

KING: Wait a minute. They didn't give their ultimate gift?

MACARTHUR: No because...

KING: They did not give their life?

MACARTHUR: I understand that God allows death. That does not mean that I take the side of a perpetrator of murder and slaughter.

KING: I'm not telling you to take their side. I'm saying is, did they have a belief?

MACARTHUR: Oh, sure. Sure. A misguided, a severely misguided one.

KING: In our opinion it was misguided, of course. But why is the death tragedy if death is good? Why is tragic used in the word death.

MACARTHUR: I'll answer that very simply. Nobody died in those towers that wasn't going to die anyway. Death is a reality. And the message is

Jesus told the story, he said there were some people worshipping in the temple: pilots -- soldiers came in, sliced them up, their blood mingled with the sacrifices, it was Passover. They said to Jesus, were they worse than anybody else? Jesus said you better repent or you will also die and perish.

And they said, a tower fell and killed 18 people in Saloam (ph), were they worse than everybody else because they were crushed? And Jesus said, you better repent or you'll likewise perish.

The Bible says you die and after this the judgment and then heaven and hell. And you're not going into eternity as energy, you're going as a person.

KING: Ellen, how does an atheist view 9/11?

JOHNSON: If you are a person who thinks that there is a creator who is -- it is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and then you make excuses for this all-powerful being for allowing 9/11 to happen, for allowing TWA flight 800 to plunge into the Atlantic Ocean, for allowing over 100,000 people to die in -- with the tsunami. If you can then excuse your God for being asleep on the job, then when a member of the clergy, the same members of the clergy ask you to pray, to pray for anything because God answers prayers, forget about it. These people...

JOHNSON: I don't think we're going to forget about it.

JOHNSON: There was no God to save them.

Human beings have to solve human problem. We take care of each other. We watch out for each other or it doesn't get done.

KING: Isn't the term free will an easy thing to say when bad things happen? Free will?

HIER: It is free will. But the truth of the matter is -- look, God created this world. And he wanted this -- this is a world for human beings. And human beings are not perfect.

Now God does did not create 9/11. God is not the author of evil. If man is God's partner, man performs or he doesn't perform.

And the tragedy about 9/11 as far as the murderers and perpetrators are concerned is that unlike in their minds, they, of course, they think they're going to heaven. Whatever the opposite of heaven is where went first class. But in terms of God's world, you know when Mary spoke about evil, God is not the author of evil. And it is -- everything bad in this world was caused by man, not God.

KING: What about tsunami, man had nothing to do with that? HIER: Well, man had nothing to do with the tsunami.

KING: So, why didn't answer it?

HIER: Well, we answer it follows, that if -- for God to create an imperfect world, in order for man to be his partner, the world has to be imperfect. If the world is perfect, then man knows all his clues.

KING: So, he gets no blame.

HIER: He's not -- when God created an imperfect world...

KING: If somebody kills someone, they killed him. If a tsunami occurs, it is an imperfect world. What did he do wrong?

HIER: Man doesn't pay attention to the traffic. If man doesn't pay attention to the traffic, we're not -- in other words, human beings, perhaps is 100 years now, 500 years from now, will be able to measure tsunamis better than -- we will have scientific methods of measuring them that are not available to us now.

KING: Don't help the 2-year-old...

HIER: But God is not going to interfere in his world.

KING: I'll take a break.

KING: I'll get to get a break, we'll pick right back up. We'll take some calls too. Don't go away.


KING: We'll pick up again on death and natural tragedies versus man made tragedies. But let's include some calls. Clovis, California, hello.

CALLER: Hello?


CALLER: If Jesus is the only way to get into heaven, was heaven empty and devoid of souls before Jesus came to Earth.

KING: John?

MACARTHUR: Oh, that's a very good question, and the answer is absolutely not. We know way back in the Book of Genesis, Enoch (ph) didn't die. He walked right into the presence of god, and the prophet Elijah went to heaven in a whirlwind. And David said that when he died, he would see god face to face. And Job said when he died, he would see god face to face. And the prophet Daniel spoke about a resurrection unto life.

There was clearly in the Old Testament an indication that they were going to go to heaven. But they went to heaven because god provides for those Old Testament saints, the same way he does for people on this side of the life of Jesus, resurrection life for those who believe in him. Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, and his righteousness was applied to them, past and future. But Jesus Christ, nonetheless, was the one who bore their punishment even though he had not yet come.

KING: Richmond, Virginia, hello.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry. My question is about our beloved pets. I recently lost mine, can't find any specific scriptures that say our pets are in heaven with us. Your thoughts on that, please. Thank you.

MANNING: I don't know that I do believe there is a spirit there. Why not? Why not?

HIER: No, I don't, because there are many things in life that we're not supposed to know.

KING: Dr. Hathout?

HATHOUT: The fact that we don't know something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We didn't know that there is -- interesting, by the way, a few years ago or few centuries raise go -- we didn't know the phenomena of gravity. We didn't know so many things. So we -- people have a tendency to be arrogant enough to say, if I don't know it, if I didn't touch it, it does not exist, which is not true.

KING: Mary Ann, you have a thought on pets?

WILLIAMSON: I think all living things are held tenderly in the hands of god.

KING: And I imagine, Ellen, you believe that a pet like a human just comes and goes?

JOHNSON: We just come and go. Yes.

KING: Sad, though.

JOHNSON: Yes. It is. Yes.

KING: Bloomfield, Connecticut, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry. My question is for Dr. Hathout. What about the claim of suicide bombers that there's virgins waiting for them on the other side. Is that in the Koran?

HATHOUT: No, it is not, and it is...

KING: Where does that come from?

HATHOUT: Well, I -- the notion of suicide is absolutely -- the only thing that is inexcusable in Islam is suicide. There's no excuse for it. So suicide is completely prohibited, and the suicide to kill others is even worse. It is totally unacceptable. KING: What of this virgin story?

HATHOUT: This virgin -- it is coming from certain traditions of literists (ph) and hearsay stories, but it is not in the Koran. The Koran is not available in any library. I challenge anyone to tell me there is a Koran...

KING: So, where did they come up with this?

HATHOUT: Well, as you know, religion have been subject to people who are galvanize people and mobilize people who are gullible, and the religion have been terribly misused. By all religions, by the way, by people who are Christians, or Jews, or whatever. And they highlight certain stories and bring them to the forefront to play on the ignorant and the gullible, and to lead them to death, which is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KING: Mary Ann, do you think religion is a failure?

WILLIAMSON: No, I do not religion is a failure, and I think when you talk about religious extremists, it is -- you don't blame a religion for the fact that there are extremists in its name. Religious extremism is not religion. It is pathology, it is insanity. So, religion -- you know, god remains god, regardless of the fictions that might be proclaimed in the name of god. I think god is love, and so when people do things and use the word god that don't have love in it, they might use the words god, but god is an experience, it's not just a belief and it's not just a word.

I think there is some people who conspire with god who don't believe in him, who live loving lies and are of god, and I think there are people who proclaim him all over the place and live lives of hate. So, I think that the real religious experience goes beyond doctrine, even goes beyond belief; it goes to an experience of our love for each other, love for our creator, love for this earth, and love that emanates outward from who we are and makes all things right. That's the religious experience, and it is hardly a failure.

KING: Rabbi, because we revere life so much, doesn't it amaze you when someone kills them self?

HIER: Absolutely. Life is regarded as holy in Judaism, and, for example, any law in Jewish tradition, observance of the Sabbath, fasting on Yom Kippur, any law is violated -- may be violated -- in order to save a life, because there is nothing more sacred than a human life.

And I think that, in terms of those fanatics today who want to say that somehow god justifies killing others and killing themselves, I mean, nothing could be further from the will of god than that.

HATHOUT: This is identical to the Islamic concept, also. Nothing more important than life.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. Don't go away.


KING: We're back with our panel.

Lake City, Colorado. Hello.

CALLER: Hey, there, Larry.


CALLER: Many of your guests have said that after we die we either go to heaven or hell, and that's on the basis of whether we have faith in Jesus Christ or if we have done enough good deeds. My question is, what about the baby, the infant who has not been able to come to an understanding of Jesus or not lived enough to do the good deeds to merit heaven?

KING: Or John, someone who doesn't know about Jesus, an aborigine.

MACARTHUR: I have written a book which has been widely received and very encouraged by it by nursing associations and hospitals called "Safe in the Arms of God," and it takes an old testament-new testament look at what happens to babies that die. And as I told you, when we met the first time after 9/11, and you said, what happened to that baby at the bottom of that tower? And I said, instant heaven. And I said that in just that fast order because I had just prepared that book and I think the weight of scripture is very clear that infants that die, or people who are mentally unable to make decisions and operate in faith toward god, god gathers to himself, and scripture is clear on that.

KING: Do all of you agree on that, Father Manning?

MANNING: I think it's really important -- I agree certainly. But I think there is an important thing as a Christian for me to understand, in my understanding of Jesus, that although I believe Jesus is the son of god and he is the source of salvation of all, I believe that he can be able to be expressed in ways far beyond what I can understand. And so for me to condemn a person who loves the father -- a Jew or a Muslim that loves the father and say, well, Jesus is not...

KING: How do you view Jesus, rabbi?

HIER: I would say that Jesus was a great teacher. I do not believe he was divine. I do not believe he was the son of god, and I might add, if Moses would claim to be that he is the son of god, I would reject that as well.

KING: What does Dr. Hathout believe?

HATHOUT: I think our stand is almost identical to the rabbi. However, we believe that Jesus Christ is very special in a way because he is born to the Virgin Mary, so...

KING: And you believe she was a virgin? HATHOUT: Oh, yes.

KING: The Muslims believe...

HATHOUT: The Muslims believe -- there is a whole chapter on -- called Mary, to highlight that. So, we believe that he is described as the word of god and the spirit from him to the Virgin Mary.

KING: Mary Ann...

HATHOUT: But we don't believe he's the son of God.

KING: Mary Ann what do you believe?

WILLIAMSON: I believe that we're all the sons of God. And I believe Jesus was and is a fully actualized -- he was a fully actualized human being who now has the function of helping others, who choose -- who feel he is their way, to help them rise as well.

But I was so glad to hear the father say that he had acknowledges as a Christian that there are those who experience that vortex as it were without the name Jesus on it. And I find it very unfortunate, and a slightly offense this notion that if someone does not proclaim the name Jesus, you're talking about Jews, you're talking about atheists, you're talking about agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, who somehow, even if they aren't babies, if they do not proclaim the name Jesus, to me that is an incorrect understanding of Jesus himself.

MACARTHUR: I appreciate what she is saying. The bottom line is that this is an authority issue. The Bible says neither is their salvation in any other name other than Jesus Christ.

KING: Why do you believe that is the only word?

MACARTHUR: Because I believe the Bible is true.

KING: But he believes the Koran was true.

MACARTHUR: Well, I understand that. But I believe the Bible is true. I believe the Bible stands up scientifically, historically, prophetically, I believe every test to the scripture yields that.

KING: There's no hypocrisy.

There are contradictions.

MACARTHUR: There are hypocrites described in the Bible, but the Bible itself...

KING: We got to take a break. Ellen, what do you believe about Jesus Christ?

JOHNSON: Well, I'm here to give the reality point of view, I guess. Because the reality is there is not one shred of secular evidence there ever was a Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ and Christianity is a modern religion. And Jesus Christ is a compilation from other Gods: Horas, Mithra, who had the same origins, the same death as the mythological Jesus Christ.

KING: So you don't believe there was a Jesus Christ.

JOHNSON: There was not. It is not what I believe. There is no secular evidence that JC, Jesus Christ, ever existed.

KING: We'll take a break. And come back with more moments and subject that deserves more attention which we shall give it in the future, don't go away.


KING: Toronto, hello.

CALLER: Hello. How are you doing?

KING: Fine.

CALLER: Yes, my question is, how can there be eternal hell when the Bible clearly teaches that the result of sin is death?

KING: What do you mean?

MACARTHUR: Well, I think I understand what he means. If you take the view that death is the end of existence, then how can there be hell? When the Bible talks about death it is not the end of existence, death either ushers you into heaven or it ushers you into hell.

KING: Staten Island, New York, hello.

CALLER: I had a near fatal car accident. And I had an out of body experience. I was hovering over my own physical body and I was surrounded by a beautiful white, white light. And while there, there was a sense of peace. And there was no knowledge of my loved ones or anything here on Earth.

Then there was a vacuum that pulled me back into my physical body again. And then I had the awareness that I was dying.

And my feelings of my family members, my loved ones were so forceful with me. I believe I -- God gave me a second chance to live. And I would like to have an opinion on your panel.

KING: Mary Ann, what do you think happened?

WILLIAMSON: Well, you know it is interesting because her story is repeated so many times by people who had extraordinary near death experiences. There is a man named Tom Melon Benedict who has written an incredible piece which embellishes on what this woman just said.

I think she entered the realm of the light. She saw the light that is described. And I believe that when she said is true, God felt that for her she need to complete here in some other chapters in her soul's journey here on this Earth before she goes permanently. But I think what a gift she received in a way to have seen that light. KING: Ellen, if you accept her story, how do you explain it?

JOHNSON: Have an atheist go through the same thing. She was on obviously a believer before it happened. So, she will have a particular and cultural and religious interpretation. But there are physiological explanations for what happened.

There is no evidence that there is life after death. So theists rely on this kind of experience to try to prove there is life after death. It really doesn't prove there is life after death.

KING: Other than the Christ story, Dr. Hathout -- there is no proof, is there? Other than the Christ story? There's no proof. You don't know anybody who died.

HATHOUT: Nobody died and came back. We, as Muslims -- we believe that Jesus has yet to come. So we believe that once you go through the door, you are not going to come back until after the day of judgment.

However, as I said, not everything we believe in we have to see. How do you believe that water is oxygen and hydrogen? Somebody told you. If you have been told that fact by some source you trust, whether in the case of here is the Bible or in our case the Koran or the Torah, or your mother or your father or whatever, or your science teachers, you believe things without seeing them happening otherwise, our scope would be extremely limited.

JOHNSON: No, we don't. We don't accept that -- we accept them when we finally have the evidence for them. But if somebody tells me something when there is no evidence for it, I'm in the obligated to accept it.

HATHOUT: No. Nobody is obligated for anything. Everybody is completely entitled to his or her beliefs according to their ability to...

king: I believe most of our faith are faiths of our parents? We didn't go out and study comparative religion, right? Your father was Protestant, I'll bet.

MACARTHUR: Yes. My father was actually a pastor and still alive.

KING: You're Catholic, you're Jewish. You're from Muslims. Mary Ann, what was your father?

WILLIAMSON: I'm Jewish. I'm Jewish. I'm Jewish.

KING: You're Jewish. Ellen, were you raised Jewish, Ellen?

JOHNSON: No, my parents were not religious, of course.

KING: Why of course?

JOHNSON: If the panel at all fits. KING: They could have been and you could have broken away.

JOHNSON: Because everybody going down the panel there -- if they're religious this, they he had a religious upbringing. I'm an atheist and I was brought up in a nonreligious household.

HATHOUT: However you can be brought up in certain religions, but certain things happen in your life to either confirm or do away with your religion. So, it is not just the box that we are born within.

All of us are exposed to experiences that might make them live the religion or get...

KING: I'm running out of time.

MANNING: One of the most important thins about religion is an encounter with God. It has to be a personal relationship with God. If I'm Muslim, if I'm Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, I encounter the Lord and this is real. And this reality -- no, to the person that experiences God, you can't take this away from me because I've experienced it.

KING: I'll close with the words from "Fiddler on the Roof" "to life, to life lachaim." Lachaim, lachaim to life.

We thank our guests. We hope we have explored this situation well. We look forward to doing more programs on it.

Stay tuned now for a very special edition of "NEWSNIGHT" with Aaron Brown. A look back at the 507 squad of two years ago. Don't go away.