Question period at the new brunswick legislature < Mardi >

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Equalization Payments
Mr. S. Graham: My question this afternoon is for the Premier, and it concerns the equalization
program. As the Premier is well aware, the fiscal equalization payment has a huge impact on our
province’s budget. In the last fiscal period, it accounted for $1.348 billion. In the current budget, it
is estimated at $1.432 billion.
018 14:15
The principle behind the equalization program is that every Canadian should have the same right
to equitable health care systems, postsecondary institutions, and other social services that we are
entitled to as a right of citizenship. In fact, equalization is so important that this program is enshrined
in section 36(2) of our Constitution. Given that the formula that guides the transfer of equalization
money is now under discussion federally, can the Premier inform this House if he supports using
a 10-province model for the calculation of the formula over the current model using 5 middleincome
provinces?
Hon. Mr. Lord: I welcome the question this afternoon from the Leader of the Opposition. The
equalization issue is a very important one. About four and a half years ago, the government of New
Brunswick took a very clear position. We issued a position paper on equalization, and our position
has remained clear ever since. The government of New Brunswick supports a 10-province standard,
including comprehensive revenue coverage to be calculated in equalization.
Mr. S. Graham: I welcome the fact that the Premier remains committed to the position that was
taken, a position that we on this side of the Chamber shared as well. However, it is not only
important to move to a 10-province model. It is also important to make sure that we have the right
10-province model. It is the view of the New Brunswick Liberals that all sources of revenue,
including those from nonrenewable resources, should be included in the new calculation. Can the
Premier tell this Assembly whether he feels that the full value of nonrenewable resources such as
oil and natural gas should be included in the new formula?
Hon. Mr. Lord: Absolutely. I answered that in the first question as well. It is part of the official
position of the government of New Brunswick that we fully support including all revenues,
including nonrenewable resource revenues. Those revenues do have an impact on the fiscal capacity
of the provinces that receive those revenues, and the principle contained in the Constitution of
Canada is very clear: citizens, no matter where they live in this country, are entitled to comparable
services at comparable levels of taxation. When a province does receive revenues from
nonrenewable natural resources, it does increase its fiscal capacity and makes it easier for it to pay
for certain social programs or other investments, and that is why those revenues should be included
in a 10-province standard, including comprehensive revenue coverage.
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Mr. S. Graham: It is important to raise this issue today, as the Premier is well aware, because a
blue-ribbon panel that was brought forward by the federal government proposed a model in which
only 50% of the resource revenue would be included in the 10-point model. Again, this causes
concern, because if that formula is followed, New Brunswick could only see a possible net gain of
$20 million in revenue under the equalization adjustments. However, under a 100% resource
revenue system, we could see in the range of over $200 million, which is very important for our
province. That means that our province is going to have to take a very proactive approach in
garnering the support of provinces such as Alberta, which have to include their oil and natural gas
revenues as well in the equalization formulas.
My question to the Premier—it is more of a statement, actually—is that we are willing to work with
him. This is an area where I feel that there is common ground achieved on both sides of the House.
As the Premier begins his discussions with his federal and provincial counterparts, I think it is very
important that we have a strong, unified message from the province of New Brunswick. This is one
area where we do agree, and I am happy to see that today.
My question to the Premier is this. If he is looking for support from this side of the House, we are
willing to give it, and we are willing to cooperate in any way possible.
Hon. Mr. Lord: I want to state that the support from the official opposition of New Brunswick is
certainly welcome on this file. I am very pleased that there is a real willingness on behalf of the
federal government to deal with equalization and to deal with fiscal imbalance. I have already
approached all other Premiers at Premiers’ meetings, and some outside the Premiers’ meetings, to
get their points of view. There are certainly many Premiers who agree with the position of the
government of New Brunswick.
I want to add that there has been another report on this issue, a report that was commissioned by the
Council of the Federation and released just a few weeks ago. It fully supports the position of the
government of New Brunswick, which is that we need a 10-province standard with comprehensive
revenue coverage. As well, there was another report just a few years ago, a Senate of Canada
committee report on equalization, which also agreed with the position of the government of New
Brunswick, which was that there should be a 10-province standard, including all
revenues—therefore, comprehensive revenue coverage.
019 14:20
Mr. S. Graham: Reaching an equalization formula that is fair to all Canadians depends upon taking
the full wealth of the provinces into consideration. My question to the Premier is this: In your recent
discussions with Prime Minister Harper, has any indication been given by the federal government
that it would, indeed, be willing to entertain a 10-point comprehensive model, including all resource
revenues?
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Hon. Mr. Lord: I can state unequivocally that there is more openness with the current Prime
Minister than there was with the previous Prime Minister. The current Prime Minister is certainly
willing to sit with Premiers and to work at finding a solution to the fiscal imbalance, which is in
stark contradiction to the former Prime Minister, who completely refused to acknowledge the
existence of a fiscal imbalance and refused to consider a 10-province standard.
We are making progress. This will not be an easy issue to resolve, but our resolve as a government,
and my resolve as Premier to get the best deal, to get the formula that is based on sound
principles—not just what will work for us today or what will work for us tomorrow, but what will
work for all Canadians, and certainly what will work for all New Brunswickers—will be the driving
force behind my negotiations on behalf of New Brunswick and New Brunswickers at the upcoming
meetings later this year.
Mr. S. Graham: I notice the political tone in the Premier’s response, but I think it is important that
we put aside the politics. That is why, today, I am extending an olive branch and saying that we will
work with the Premier on this issue, because it is very important. The goal of equalization is to
ensure that all Canadians have equal access to health care services and education services. That is
a fundamental goal that we respect in this province, because we are the province that brought
forward the Equal Opportunity program.
My question to the Premier is very specific. I know that negotiations are going to be starting. The
Premier is committed to moving toward a 10-province model, which will include 100% of the
resource revenues. That means that provinces such as Alberta will have to include their oil and gas
revenues in the new equalization formula. It is a position that we share. My question is this: Has the
Premier talked to his provincial counterparts such as the Premier of Alberta, Ralph Klein, on how
we can bring this model forward so that it will benefit all the provinces of the Confederation?
Hon. Mr. Lord: I have spoken to Premier Klein on this issue more than once in the last seven years,
as I have had the opportunity to speak on this issue with virtually every other Premier who has
served in the last seven years. This issue is one that I have been working on for quite some time with
other Premiers.
I understand that the Leader of the Opposition took offense to my mentioning the previous Prime
Minister. I am just stating the facts. There is an openness. The Leader of the Opposition wants to
accuse us of being political, just a few minutes after his own member called us kissing cousins. They
like to have a double standard. I guess they are unpredictable in what they want to do.
The fact is that our position on this issue has been crystal clear. We will continue to fight to get the
best deal, and work to get the best deal for New Brunswick. I must state that the Premier who is
showing the biggest reluctance to a 10-province standard is not the Premier of Alberta, but, in fact,
the Premier of Ontario, who was a guest speaker at a fund-raiser of the Liberal Party of New
Brunswick. I just want to make sure that the facts are stated very clearly.
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Another very important fact is that, even though the revenues that are collected by the provinces are
calculated for equalization, the money that is paid out does not come from the government of
Alberta, it does not come from the government of Ontario, or from any other provincial government.
All the money transferred from equalization comes from the federal government.
Mr. S. Graham: Again, I have stated to the Premier that we are willing to work on this file. If the
Premier wants me to approach the Premier of Ontario, then we are willing to do that, to very clearly
explain New Brunswick’s position. We believe, as the Premier does, that a 10-province model must
be utilized, using 100% of the resources. That is a position that we are prepared to defend. If it
means that I have to go against the Premier of Ontario to defend New Brunswick’s position, I am
prepared to do that. My question to the Premier is this: Are you prepared to do the same with
Stephen Harper.
Hon. Mr. Lord: I am more than willing to do my job as Premier of New Brunswick to defend a
strong position for an equitable equalization program in this country. I have been doing it for seven
years, and I will continue to do it as long as I am the Premier of New Brunswick.
020 14:25
Health Care Services
Mr. V. Boudreau: My question today is for the Minister of Health. As I said in my earlier
statement, unfortunately, this minister seems to want to constantly look at his provincial health plan
through rose-coloured glasses, when it is very clear, from looking around the province, that it is
simply not working. We have talked about Miramichi and we have talked about Tracadie. Last
week, a story broke in Saint John that the head of the ER department is resigning. He is totally
frustrated. There is a lack of resources, and the emergency room has been treating more than twice
the number of patients it is equipped to handle. The ER was built to handle 25 000 to 30 000 per
year. That number has climbed to 70 000 this year, prolonging waitlists for patients.
My question for the Minister of Health is very simple: What does the minister intend to do to resolve
the situation at the Saint John Regional Hospital?
Hon. Mr. Green: Point of fact, I do not wear glasses—rose-coloured or any other kind. I certainly
do not need glasses to see the success of our provincial health plan. In the city of Saint John, just
recently we opened a third cath lab and are about to open a new PET/CT Scan. We have a very
vibrant and successful new community health centre at St. Josephs. I do not need glasses to see the
success of our plan, either in Saint John or anywhere else in this province, because, the fact is, it is
working and it is working well.
Mr. V. Boudreau: If the minister states this afternoon that he does not wear rose-coloured glasses,
maybe he could at least take the blinders off. In the same media report, it mentions that there are
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many reasons for the rising number of ER visits, including a shortage of family doctors in Saint
John, an aging population, and the decision to close St. Joseph’s 24-hour emergency room service
last year. On every day but one in the month of April, crowding prompted ER staff to declare a Code
Orange, which sets other departments scrambling to accommodate emergency patients. Code Orange
is only declared when ER doctors do not believe they can treat patients adequately. When will the
minister and his government admit that the provincial health care plan is not working, and when will
he commit to reviewing it once and for all?
Hon. Mr. Green: I am not going to admit to something that simply is not true. It is not true to say
that the provincial health plan is not working. It is working. The member opposite mentioned St.
Joseph’s Hospital, which I also made mention of in my first response to his initial question. The fact
is that St. Joseph’s Hospital in Saint John is a vibrant hospital with a new mandate and a new lease
on life. That is something it could not consistently receive from the previous government.
I have been to the Saint John Regional Hospital. I have met with medical staff there. I have met with
the CEO. I have met with the Chair of the board. I believe that we are being responsive to the needs
of that hospital. When it comes to physicians in this province, we have an exceptional record of
success in recruiting and retaining physicians, with a net increase of 214 since 1999. The last report
that I received from Region 2 for the city of Saint John was that they now are able to accommodate
all the residents of that city in terms of access to a family doctor.
Mr. V. Boudreau: The answers that I am getting today are unbelievable. Obviously, the minister
does not look at media reports and does not look at what is being put out by his own caucus. A press
release was put out May 31, 2004, which stated that Tory MLAs were committed to the future of
St. Joe’s. How do they resolve St. Joe’s? It is by referring all critical emergency and trauma cases
to the Saint John Regional Hospital. They turn around a year later, July 1, 2005, struggling with an
ongoing physician shortage, and state that the urgent care centre at St. Joe’s will drop its hours from
9 to 4 from the previous 8 to 10. Obviously, the recruitment and retention is an issue in Saint John,
just like it is an issue everywhere else in this province.
In an editorial in the Telegraph-Journal on June 14, 2005, it says it best: If the situation in Saint
John’s hospitals reflects what communities can expect from the provincial health plan, New
Brunswickers should be worried. When will this minister take the time to revise this plan? It is
clearly not working. It is not providing the services it should be to New Brunswickers across this
province.
Hon. Mr. Green: I am more than happy to agree to disagree with the member opposite. I am, in
fact, prepared to disagree with all the members opposite, because I know full well, as do my
colleagues on this side of the House, that the provincial health plan is well-reasoned and wellstructured.
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021 14:30
It is being well implemented, and it is showing positive results. Whether it is in hospitals or in
community health centres around this province; whether it is in the introduction of new programs,
such as expanded vaccines; whether it is in the expansion of the Prescription Drug Program—over
225 new drugs have been added to the formulary since 1999—whether it is in the recruitment and
retention of doctors; or whether it is to address the issue of having more full-time nurses in New
Brunswick, which we have also done very successfully, the plan is working.
Assurance Automobile
M. Landry : Aujourd’hui, dans un article publié dans le Telegraph-Journal, le défenseur du
consommateur en matière d’assurance, Ronald Godin, a eu le courage de commenter une tendance
inquiétante dans le secteur de l’assurance automobile. Il a dit clairement que plusieurs
consommateurs refusent des réclamations, même des réclamations mineures, car ils ont peur de voir
leurs primes augmenter de façon faramineuse. Comme lui, je crois que ce n’est pas normal que les
gens aient peur du produit qu’ils achètent. Ma question est pour le ministre de la Justice et de la
Consommation. Le ministre peut-il nous dire ce que son ministère fera pour traiter de cette
situation?
Hon. Mr. Fitch: On this topic, there is an important issue that has to be realized. Auto insurance
rates in New Brunswick have been decreasing. They have been decreasing regularly since 2003. At
one of the forums, one of the issues that was put in place is the fact that Ronald Godin is the
insurance advocate and that people can go to him with issues or problems. However, there is a
concept of insurance that is very important to understand. If there is something that a person can
afford to repair or replace, then they make that choice. It is a personal choice that they make.
Insurance is there to cover the things that you cannot afford to pay for yourself, like injuries caused
to other drivers or injuries that cause the loss of financial ability for the individual driving the car.
I would like to point to the fact that insurance rates have been decreasing. They continue to be
reduced. People have choice in the market. They have the choice to make claims or not.
M. Landry : La semaine dernière, le Bureau d’assurance du Canada a organisé des ateliers pratiques
pour aider les entreprises et les organismes bénévoles de la province à réduire leurs primes
d’assurance en adoptant un nombre de stratégies. Un porte-parole invité, Greg Roe, a prétendu que
l’assurance, par définition, ne devait pas être utilisée pour couvrir les petites réclamations et qu’il
était tout à fait normal que les gens choisissent de payer de leur propre poche des petits montants
au lieu de faire des réclamations. Le ministre est-il d’accord avec cette affirmation? Croit-il que
c’est tout-à-fait normal que les gens choisissent massivement de payer pour des dommages au lieu
de faire appel aux compagnies d’assurance?
Hon. Mr. Fitch: I would like to go back again to the idea that, when you purchase insurance,
whether it be for your home, your car, or your own personal life insurance to look after your
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beneficiaries, you have a choice in how you set up that policy. You can set up the policy with a high
deductible, which may reduce the premium. You can reduce the deductible, which may cause the
premium to increase. These are choices that consumers have to make. The thing I want to point out
is that, since 2003, since we put the reforms in place, there is more choice in New Brunswick than
ever before.
The member opposite should know that the Insurance Board will be holding sessions around the
province, starting tonight in the city of Dieppe, where people can meet with the Insurance Board to
state their concerns or issues. The Insurance Board will be providing information on insurance. Also,
Ron Godin, the insurance advocate, will be present at these meetings. The board will hold seven
sessions around the province. I have heard people say that they initially had premiums of
approximately $2 000. They shopped the market, because there are options and there is the ability
to shop the market, and their premium went down to $1 200 for two cars. It is plain to see that the
reforms put in place by this government are working for the people of New Brunswick.
M. Landry : Les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick n’ont pas vraiment le choix de faire ou non de petites
réclamations. S’ils font des réclamations, ils ont peur que leurs primes d’assurance augmenteront
substantiellement. C’est pour cette raison qu’ils ne font pas de réclamations.
022 14:35
Le rapport annuel publié par le ministère de la Justice démontre que le nombre des réclamations a
diminué de 38 % en 2003-2004. Je crois qu’il ne fait aucun doute que si les primes d’assurance ont
diminué un peu ce n’est pas à cause des réformes de ce gouvernement, mais parce que le nombre
des réclamations a diminué de façon spectaculaire. Comme l’a dit Ronald Godin, les consommateurs
sont nerveux lorsque vient le temps de soumettre une réclamation. Ils sont comme on dirait « claim
shocked ». Le ministre va-t-il enfin avouer que ce sont les réclamations et non les primes qui ont
diminué, étant donné que, suite aux réformes du gouvernement, il est moins intéressant pour les
consommateurs de faire des réclamations comme l’a suggéré un reportage de Radio-Canada?
Hon. Mr. Fitch: No. I think that people are smarter about how they deal with their insurance. They
are smarter about how they manage their claims experience. They are smarter about the choices they
make when it comes to insurance. There is now greater insurance availability throughout New
Brunswick. That is the issue. What is astonishing to me is that, when he was running his election
platform, the Leader of the Opposition said: I will reduce rates by 25%. There was no plan and there
were no reforms. This government said: Here is what we will specifically do. We will put reforms
in place with the advocate, and with the various coverages. The reduction in premiums in this
province has exceeded the 25% reduction which was alluded to by the Leader of the Opposition.
This opposition has no credibility when it comes to insurance. It talks about having no set position,
yet members of the opposition are speaking in this House about a provincial insurance that will have
an average premium of over $200 more for every New Brunswicker, right across the province. Last
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week, this House agreed that it would continue the oil supplement of $200, because we all thought
that $200 was very important. Right here in New Brunswick, public insurance would cost every New
Brunswicker $200 more. We are working for the province of New Brunswick . . .
Mr. Speaker: Time.
Special Needs Children
Mr. MacIntyre: I have a question for the Minister of Education. On May 15, the parents of children
with autism, along with the parents of other special needs children, were notified that the special
needs resource rooms in District 8 would close, effective September 2006. I would like to read a bit
of the letter which was sent to all the parents: Discussions with representatives from the Department
of Education about the special needs resource rooms and the district have led the district to bring
the programs for students with exceptionalities more in line with the inclusionary practice of the
New Brunswick Department of Education. Therefore, effective September 2006, the special needs
rooms will be closed.
My question for the minister is this: Why were parents not consulted when it came to a decision for
closing the special needs resource rooms?
Hon. Mr. Williams: To respond to the question to which the member is making reference, I think
he is making a point about communication. There seems to have been a communication breakdown,
so to speak. We are taking appropriate action to reestablish the communication with the district, the
parents, and the Department of Education.
Mr. MacIntyre: There was no consultation with the parents. There was no consultation with the
Community Autism Centre. The letter itself was signed by Kevin King, who is a learning specialist
for student services. It is difficult for me to believe that this decision did not come from the
minister’s office.
I would like to read just a little bit from the Community Autism Centre, for the record: As the
Community Autism Centre, we are shocked and appalled by the actions of District 8 and their
decision to close the special needs resource room. Last June, when we contacted Terry McInerney
and expressed our concerns regarding the transfer of our classroom to a middle school basement,
these issues were raised in collaboration with the provincial Association of Community Living: the
physical location of the resource room, i.e., in a basement, and some with no windows; the age
groupings from Grade 2 to Grade 8; the accountability regarding the inclusion; a mother was told
that it would be a long walk for her Grade 2 son to go to a regular classroom.
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023 14:40
The feeling is that they were punished for raising these issues, which is a shame. This was the last
thing they expected. If there are resource rooms throughout the province, mandated by the province,
why has District 8 made the decision to close these resource rooms?
Hon. Mr. Williams: I would mention that this situation has been addressed by the Department of
Education. I might add that the situation was brought to the former Minister of Education, Minister
Dubé, by a colleague. There has been discussion between the department and District 8, in order to
look at all the questions of inclusive education. There have been talks.
The member is referring to the fact that the parents, following the letter that was sent . . . The parents
were not consulted. I think the member is making a point. As I mentioned, there was a
communications breakdown. We are taking appropriate action in order to reestablish
communications and to engage the parents in the process.
Mr. MacIntyre: The parents were appalled at the decision. I also want to thank my colleague from
Saint John Kings, who was also involved in this issue, because some of these resource rooms are
in her riding. I can tell you that people were absolutely appalled. I also visited a resource room, and
it would be a good thing for all members to do. I saw the good work that these teachers and teacher’s
assistants are doing with life skills training for these special needs students.
Will the minister reverse this decision today and ensure the long-term viability of these special needs
resource rooms? The parents are absolutely appalled. They are shocked. They love their children,
and they work hard with their children; so do the teachers and the teachers’ assistants. When there
is a mistake, you admit it and you change the decision. Change the decision today, minister.
Hon. Mr. Williams: The department is working with the district. It is working with the parents. We
have to respect that there is the Education Act, and there are all these questions of inclusive
education. I must add that we will be holding a forum over the weekend. This is all part of inclusive
education in New Brunswick.
I want to reassure the member that we are committed to working with the parents, to working with
District 8 and with the community. We have inclusion in New Brunswick, and we want to make sure
that the principles and practices are applied in all areas of New Brunswick. Just to reaffirm our
commitment, tomorrow night, my staff and I will be meeting with District 8 and with the parents.
I will be meeting with them tomorrow evening, because I want to be sure that the parents are
engaged and are part of the project.
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Personnel d’usine de traitement du poisson
M. Albert : Déjà plus de 70 % du quota de crabe ont été débarqués. Des centaines d’employés
d’usine de transformation n’ont plus de travail. Ils ont travaillé trois semaines. On prévoit que près
de 2 500 employés auront travaillé de quatre à sept semaines. Présentement, il y a des mères et des
pères de famille qui sont très inquiets et qui ont peur pour leur avenir. Vont-ils pouvoir mettre du
pain et du beurre sur la table? Ils vivent une situation très difficile. Cette situation est très
humiliante. Ils veulent vivre dans la dignité et avoir une qualité de vie pour leur famille. Ma question
pour le ministre de l’Éducation postsecondaire et de la Formation est la suivante : Votre ministère
travaille-t-il à un programme? Allez-vous le mettre en place afin de venir en aide à ces travailleurs
et travailleuses?
M. Carr : J’ai rencontré le maire de la Péninsule acadienne. C’était une bonne occasion pour moi,
et j’aimerais aussi dire merci à mon collègue, le ministre des Transports, pour ses efforts.
Certainly, it is an issue of which I am very much aware, and I am very concerned about it. I want
to assure all members in this House, and in particular all the workers and all of the people of the
Acadian Peninsula, that we are taking this very seriously. Our staff work very diligently, every
single day, on this issue, and we will continue to monitor the issue. I can guarantee the House and
the people that we will be there, and we are there, continuously, for these workers.
024 14:45
M. Albert : J’ai entendu cela deux années de suite. On est très préoccupé et on prend cela très au
sérieux, mais rien n’est fait. On laisse les gens tomber, on ne veut pas les aider. Pourquoi les
pénaliser? Ils ne sont pas la source du problème. Pourtant l’entente fédérale-provinciale donne plus
de 100 millions de dollars à la province pour s’occuper de ces travailleurs et travailleuses. L’entente
est très flexible. L’année dernière, l’ancienne ministre parlait de l’élaboration d’une stratégie à long
terme. Où est-elle? Vous les avez laissés tomber en 2004 et en 2005. Allez-vous les laisser tomber
encore? Votre manque de vision et de leadership et votre inaction pénalisent ces personnes. Vous
avez le devoir moral de les aider. Ce problème n’est pas leur faute. C’est plutôt votre faute. Allezvous
les aider, oui ou non?
Hon. Mr. Carr: This is hardly an issue on which we should accept finger-pointing. In fact, my
colleagues, the Minister of Transportation and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and
Aquaculture, have worked very diligently and closely on this issue. We continue to discuss it with
our federal counterparts. I have also met with my Quebec counterpart; there is a common interest.
We do have programs in place. Quite clearly, when we took office, we changed our direction on our
programs, to have long-term career planning. In particular, with the workers on the Acadian
Peninsula, we assess and keep in contact with our officials—individually, to work with each worker,
to ensure that they have long-term employment and long-term career goals. We are very proud to
be able to work with the people of New Brunswick and the Acadian Peninsula, to provide hope and,
ORAL QUESTIONS 30 QUESTIONS ORALES
May 23, 2006 Not finalized / Non finalisé le 23 mai 2006
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more importantly, to provide long-term opportunity. The fact is that there are fewer people on social
assistance and more people working. We will continue to do our job.