PERIODE DE QUESTIONS A LA MAISON LEGISLATIVE DU NOUVEAU-BRUNSWICK!!! ADHD STYLE!!!!

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Protection of Personal Information
Mr. Fitch: In reference to the firestorm that erupted over the loss of the medical records of 485 New
Brunswickers, it was reported yesterday that the Ombudsman said this, in reference to the period
of time that passed between the time the minister knew about the incident and the time he acted
decisively. He said that the five-day delay was “regrettable.” It was six days if you count the
Thursday. My question is to the Premier. Does he agree with the statements made by the
Ombudsman?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: This is a health question. T

he purpose of our e-health initiative in the future is
to ensure that we have shorter wait times and fewer mistakes, and that people get quicker access to
the health care system. Needless to say, and as I have said before, this is being built hand in hand
with privacy and security and with privacy legislation.
014 10:50
We understand full well that we must enhance the environment of trust that New Brunswickers
expect from the Department of Health, and from any government, as a whole. The opportunity to
partner with the Ombudsman, and to take from his office some valuable insights and experience, is
something that we have greeted well in the past, and will continue to greet in the future.
Mr. Fitch: This may be a question of health, but, to me, it is a question of competence in this
government, and how it acts.
My question goes back to the Premier: Why is he not rising here today and defending his minister
in this House? I believe that the Premier believes the Ombudsman. I believe that the Premier
believes this opposition, that the Minister of Health should resign, and that he is not standing up and
defending him in the House, because he believes that the Minister of Health should resign. Is the
Premier not defending his minister, because he believes the opposition is right?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The Premier and I are on the same page with regard to health care in this
province. We are on the same page with regard to the very good people in the Department of Health.
The member opposite has not provided sufficient evidence, or reason, to this House for anyone else
to rise with regard to these questions. We have an extraordinary opportunity in this province, to not
only catch up with the rest of the country on the e-health initiative, but to surpass them. In order to
do that, we know full well that we must restore and enhance the environment of trust that New
Brunswickers expect. We will continue to do that.
There are valuable insights that the Ombudsman has, because of his experience across this country
and around the globe. We have had 11 opportunities, pre incident, to discuss privacy with the
Ombudsman. We will continue to do that, as we did last week, and for the months before that. We
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welcome the opportunity to partner with him, and we welcome the opportunity to bring about the
best e-health initiative in this country.
Mr. Fitch: Again, the Premier fails to rise in this House and defend his minister. He fails to rise in
this House and defend the New Brunswickers who have been compromised. The issue here is that
the Ombudsman was quoted, within the newspaper, saying that this government has taken a hit. He
was quoted as saying that the minister took a hit, but he also said the government. The Premier is
the leader over here. He should show leadership by standing up and defending his minister, or do
the right thing, and ask him to resign. Which is it?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The Premier has given the Department of Health—its personnel and I—an
opportunity to advance health care in this province, to catch up with some of the initiatives that have
been advanced across the country, and that have not been worked on until we got into power. We
have worked with the Ombudsman with regard to the task force on personal health information. We
provided the Office of the Ombudsman with a very thorough briefing on November 22 with regard
to our initiatives. The context of discussions with the Ombudsman’s Office, pre incident, was always
with regard to the e-health initiative and the construction of it. We value his insight and we value
his judgement. We will continue to partner with him in the future, as we have in the past. There are
great opportunities here.
The more vigilance there is with regard to the e-health initiative, and the security and privacy around
it, then the more trust we will be able to bring about in that environment for the future, and better
health care for New Brunswickers in the end.
Mr. Fitch: Some things are becoming clear. It seems the real leader of the party is rising here in the
House to defend himself, and not the Premier, which is regrettable. This has been dumped on the
desk of the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman has said, in the media, that he is understaffed and
underfunded to study the health care privileges issue.
My question is this: If you have dumped it on the desk of the Ombudsman in the hope that it would
go away over the break, or in the hope that the office does not have enough resources to do the job
properly, are you going to fund the Office of the Ombudsman properly, to make sure that this job
gets done right?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: It was I, as Minister of Health, who wanted to specifically advise the
Ombudsman that resources would be made available to him to conduct his review of the incident,
and also of the security around personal health information, in conjunction, of course, with our own
review at the same time. The Ombudsman raised a good point, that perhaps the money should not
necessarily come from the Department of Health itself. In consultation with the Minister of Finance,
we both agreed that we would find a conduit, a proper source for funding, within government, to
ensure that the Ombudsman has the proper resources.
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The more resources he has with regard to this, the more likely it is that we will have the most secure
system that one can have across this country, so that the e-health initiative can go forward; provide
shorter wait times; provide less possibility of error; provide one patient, one record; and provide
access to all clinicians who have the authority to access that information. That is all for good health
care in this province. There are great opportunities with the Ombudsman, great opportunities in
health, and great opportunities across the board.
M. P. Robichaud : Vous savez, en politique, il y a un vieux dicton qui dit qu’on garde nos amis près
de nous et nos ennemis encore plus près. C’est peut-être la raison pour laquelle le ministre de la
Santé est maintenant le voisin du premier ministre à l’Assemblée législative.
Vous savez, il y a une tradition parlementaire britannique, qui existe depuis fort longtemps. Bien
souvent, quand un ministre est dans l’eau chaude, comme le ministre de la Santé, le premier
ministre, qui est celui finalement qui nomme les ministres et qui décide qui fera partie du conseil
des ministres, vient à la défense de son ministre. Depuis maintenant deux semaines, le premier
ministre n’a pas levé le petit doigt et ne s’est pas levé une fois à la Chambre pour défendre son
ministre de la Santé qui est dans l’eau chaude. Ma question pour le premier ministre est la suivante :
Étant donné que l’ombudsman du Nouveau-Brunswick a dit très clairement que, entre le temps où
le ministre a été avisé et le temps où il a agi, il s’est écoulé entre cinq en six jours et que le ministre
avait été négligeant, le premier ministre peut-il conclure que cette négligence est suffisante pour
demander la démission de son ministre de la Santé? Ma question est pour le premier ministre.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: Defense is not needed when sufficient facts or evidence is not put before the
House or the public of any type of so-called negligence. In fact, the record should be corrected in
that the Ombudsman did not reference any type of negligence. Despite calls of the opposition to fire
individuals within the Department of Health, individuals who have tried to do their utmost to secure
records, the reality is that we have very good personnel at the Department of Health. A mistake was
made; that is being corrected. We are ensuring that, in the future, the best possible security measures
will be in place.
The opposition really should focus on how we can work together with the Ombudsman, with the
Department of Health, and with the other government departments to ensure that we have the best
health care system in this country, and the e-health initiative is a big part of it.
M. P. Robichaud : La seule personne qui a fait référence à des employés du ministère de la Santé,
c’est le ministre même, lorsqu’il s’est levé à la Chambre pour dire c’était une certaine dame qui
travaille dans un cubicule au deuxième étage qui aurait fait une erreur. Ces paroles ne viennent pas
de nous mais du ministre de la Santé qui tentait de se débarrasser de cette patate chaude et de la faire
passer sur le dos d’une employée de son ministère.
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La réalité est la suivante. Le premier ministre a entendu et lu aussi bien que nous les commentaires
de l’ombudsman disant que non seulement le ministre a été négligeant mais que le ministère comme
tel S qui est sous la gouverne du ministre de la Santé actuel depuis au-delà d’un an S, aurait fait fi
des recommandations de l’ombudsman pour ce qui est de toute la question de la sécurité et de la
protection de l’information personnelle. Le premier ministre aura-t-il le courage de se lever ce matin
et de nous donner une indication de ce qu’il prévoit faire de son ministre de la Santé, étant donné
qu’il a été négligeant non seulement à partir du moment où il a reçu l’information mais à partir du
moment où il a été assermenté comme ministre de la Santé pour tout ce qui est de l’information
confidentielle et personnelle de son ministère? À ce point de vue, je pense que cela mérite que le
ministre soit retiré de ses fonctions en tant que ministre de la Santé en attendant que l’ombudsman
fasse son travail et que la lumière soit faite sur cette situation. Le premier ministre va-t-il agir dans
cette direction?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: We need the context of the remarks. The Ombudsman referenced the regrettable
time delay between Thursday, December 6 and the following Tuesday afternoon, when the statement
was made to the House. He is quite correct. That time line is regrettable, but regrettable in the
context that the information that we hoped we could have on the previous Thursday could have been
more elaborate. In fact, the department was in full review and had undertaken every avenue possible
to reconstruct events to give rise to facts. Those facts came about, came to fruition in full on Monday
afternoon, and directions were made to contact the police.
016 11:00
The Ombudsman’s Office, as I said, is in partnership with the Department of Health. We had,
between May 18, 2007, and November 22, 2007, six avenues of exchange for information,
consultation, and meetings on the e-health initiative, on the contracts, and on security. We will
continue that pattern. We will continue to work with the Ombudsman’s Office for the security of
that information for health care.
M. P. Robichaud : Le ministre de la Santé parle de situation regrettable. C’est beaucoup plus que
regrettable, c’est de la négligence qui met, aujourd’hui, la confidentialité de plus de 485 personnes
du Nouveau-Brunswick en danger. On ne sait pas dans quel main cette information peut tomber, et,
bien souvent, toute cette information ne tombe pas dans les mains de gens qui veulent s’en servir
à de bonnes causes. Ce sont souvent des gens qui s’en servent de façon malveillante. Le ministre de
la Santé prend cette situation à la légère, et cela n’est pas acceptable.
Ma question encore une fois pour le premier ministre, étant donné qu’il est la personne qui décide
qui sont ses ministres et quels ministères ils ont la charge, est la suivante : Le premier ministre va-til
accepter la recommandation de l’ombudsman ainsi que les conclusions de son rapport et agir en
conséquence? Si l’ombudsman détermine très clairement que le ministre de la Santé a été négligent
dans ce dossier, autant du moment où il a reçu l’information qu’à partir du moment où il a été
assermenté comme ministre, le premier ministre peut-il prendre l’engagement qu’il va aller de
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l’avant avec les recommandations de l’ombudsman, agir en conséquence et demander la démission
de son ministre? J’espère que le premier ministre va avoir le courage de se lever et de parler sur un
dossier qui préoccupe beaucoup de gens du Nouveau-Brunswick.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: It is my opportunity to stand and to assure New Brunswickers that their
Department of Health has acted with the utmost diligence in these matters. It is a very regrettable,
serious, and unfortunate incident, but to properly reflect, we have to remember that there is no
evidence whatsoever that any of the information on these cassettes has fallen into improper hands.
We have a credit monitoring service in place. We have indicated that New Brunswickers who could
be affected by anything untoward are not responsible. We have spoken this morning and in the past
with regard to the insight, judgment, and experience of the Ombudsman himself, of his office, and
of the partnership that we intend to continue with the Ombudsman. That is something that will
benefit all New Brunswickers. The resources will be made available. We take no issue with his
remark that perhaps that should not come from the Department of Health. That shows the spirit of
cooperation. The spirit of cooperation of the past will continue.
Parks
Mr. D. Graham: It is amazing that the Premier of New Brunswick would get involved in a small
file such as Woolastook Provincial Park. A gentleman has basically put all of his life savings into
a business. This Premier is behind exactly what Mr. Paget is facing. I recall, a few weeks ago,
speaking to the Premier before question period. He made it very clear, saying: Dale, you are on the
wrong side of this issue.
I recall meeting with the Minister of Business New Brunswick and the Minister of Natural
Resources. When the Premier comes along and basically says that there is no backtracking on
this . . . He said he gave strict orders to do an RFP, and he wanted it done. My question to the
Premier today is this: Will he issue a license of operation to Mr. Paget today?
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: We are very fortunate in New Brunswick. There are many uses for Crown
lands, and we offer Crown commercial leases. At the same time, when we offer those leases, there
are some conditions attached to them. Everybody knows that, and I think the former Minister of
Natural Resources knows this file fairly well. The former, former Minister of Natural Resources,
who is now the Leader of the Opposition, is more than well aware of this file.
If I look back on this file alone, on December 5, 2001, the operator in question did get a letter saying
that cancellation was pending. On July 22, 2002, there was another warning. On June 18, 2004, there
was another warning. On January 20, 2006, there was another warning. On October 30, 2006, there
was another warning. Every time we send the letter, we also say that failure to comply with any
terms and conditions of the license or failure to meet any of the mutually agreed upon deadlines
would result in the immediate termination of the license, without further notice. Government is
about making decisions. That is what I have done.
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Mr. D. Graham: On this side of the House, government is about people. We know that there was
a good attendance in the gallery yesterday. I challenge the Premier today to call at least 125 seasonal
campers who have sites at Woolastook and ask them. I challenge the Premier. We watch the Premier
at media events, and it is always: I this, or I that. Now, I know that it is I. He shut down the Minister
of Natural Resources. He shut down the Minister of Business New Brunswick. Now, he is going to
make the decisions. Today, colleagues, I think we have defined what self-sufficiency means to this
government. Its members often tell us not to look back and to look to the future. The people in the
gallery yesterday were looking for their future. Mr. Paget has put everything on the line. He wants
a second chance, and I am asking the Premier to get up today and tell us: Will he give DNR a
request to offer a license of operation?
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: It is about people. It is about the campers and about our tourists. When we
give a Crown lease license to operate such a park, standards have to be met. Unfortunately, those
standards have not been met. However, we took care of the campers. We notified all the campers
that their infrastructure can remain on-site throughout the winter months. In the winter, we will put
out an RFP in order to find a new operator for the site so that these campers can enjoy it in the
future. I have cooperated on this file and on many other files since I have been the Minister of
Natural Resources. I find it very unfortunate when we talk about bullying. I had two of my staff
meet the opposition, but not one, two, three, four, or five, but six members of the opposition showed
up and bullied my staff on this file, and I find that very unfortunate.
Mr. D. Graham: In this case, not one penny of government money has been invested in that. This
individual started the campsite. He picked up some monies that were left over from the former
lessee. He has put his life into this. I want the Premier to stand today and tell us: Is he saying no to
this request? I have been a small business owner, and we have had some tough times. When there
is no working cash, you cannot make your commitments. From 2005 to today, we are talking about
at least 125 seasonal campers being there. Mr. Paget says that it brings in a revenue of between
$1 200 and $1 500 per site. This gentleman now has the cash flow to meet the commitments, which
he has met. He has met the commitments with the tourism grading and inspection that has to be
done. He has met those. We know—and I can tell you—that this Premier, in September 2010, will
be going out to the people, asking for another chance. I am sure that this Premier will get a wake-up
call, because this guy is for big business and not small.
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: Once again, earlier this year, we sent a letter to the operator in question.
Several conditions were identified in this letter. We also said that failure to comply with any of the
terms and conditions of this license or failure to meet any of the mutually agreed upon deadlines
would result in immediate termination of this license, without further notice. This document is also
signed by the operator in question, who agreed to all these conditions. Unfortunately, these
conditions were not met. I know that the member for Oromocto made a request for information. I
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have all the documents. He can look through all our documents since 2001. I have no problem with
that. This is a file that had been ongoing with the past government as well. This operator has been
given many, many chances, but, at some point, enough is enough. We have to make a decision, and
that is what I did.
Mr. Carr: The attitude of this Liberal government is appalling. I think it is shining very clearly
today that it is a common theme that the Liberal Party is about its Liberal friends. Its members are
not about the little guy of New Brunswick.
018 11:10
We are talking about building self-sufficiency, so I have a question for the Premier. The Premier has
intervened and ordered his ministers not to help the little guy in this case. Not one individual camper
wants to see Mr. Paget go. In fact, they helped him build that park from a cow pasture to what it is
today, from 15 seasonal campers to over 130 seasonal campers, from 4 500 yearly visitors to 45 000
visitors last year. This should be commended, applauded, and encouraged.
Yes, the PC government gives the small businessman a chance. We work with small business. We
work with the good people of New Brunswick to help them succeed, not the other way around. We
would not have pulled the rug out from under Mr. Paget’s feet. Will the Premier reverse his decision
and give Mr. Paget another year’s lease, to show the rest of New Brunswick that hard work does pay
off?
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: On several occasions throughout the year, and since 2001, several conditions
were presented to the operator in question. He was told that if these conditions were not met, his
lease would be canceled. Again, earlier this year, I gave him a chance, as well. He agreed to all the
conditions, and, unfortunately, they were not met.
Yes, it is about people. Yes, it is about campers and tourists. We have some policies in place through
the Tourism Development Act. We have to get the proper authority, which, again, is another of the
conditions. These conditions were not met. Throughout the winter, we will put out an RFP and find
a suitable operator who can run that park next year.
Mr. Carr: Why is it that the only person who wants to see Mr. Paget replaced and shoved aside by
a Liberal friend is the Premier of New Brunswick? What message does that send to the rest of our
province? In fact, I challenge the Minister of Natural Resources and the Premier to tell this House:
Which standards were not met by Mr. Paget? They think they are so cocky. They think they are so
arrogant. They think they know best. In fact, we have a letter from last week which I doubt is in that
envelope of information from the Minister of Natural Resources. It is from the Deputy Minister of
Tourism, and it gives Mr. Paget a clean slate to operate Woolastook Park on Tourism standards. The
letter is right here. My colleague from York has provided me with a copy. The letter is right here.
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It is from the Deputy Minister of Tourism, and it tells Mr. Paget that there are no restrictions in place
to prohibit any future operations.
I challenge the government and the Premier to give Mr. Paget another year’s lease. The information
from DNR that he is using is form last July. It is old information, and the new information is
certainly not what the Premier wants to use. In this new information from Tourism, the deputy
minister is showing this contradiction. Mr. Paget had done everything he needed to do prior to
November to make this park work. Can the Premier and the government not stand up for Mr. Paget
and, more importantly, stand up for the 200 campers and for the people of New Brunswick?
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: Again, we have standards in New Brunswick. We have standards through
the Tourism Development Act that have to be met. When tourists come to New Brunswick, they
expect certain standards. Unfortunately, time and time again, the individual in question did not meet
the conditions—conditions which, I would remind the member, were agreed to by the operator
himself. Unfortunately, we had to come to the decision we did.
We are there for the campers. The campers are asking for an RFP to be put out this winter for
operation next year. We are getting that information. At the end of the day, we have told the campers
that they can leave their infrastructure in place throughout the winter. We will put out an RFP
throughout the winter to make sure there is an operator to operate that site next summer.
Mr. Carr: This is shady, like the Parlee Beach Shediac park; that was started by the old Liberal
government. This is shady. Something stinks about this. I am upset about it, and so are the campers.
I have a lot of constituents who camp at this park seasonally. They are in the military, in the
Canadian Armed Forces. When they contact me, it is a serious issue, because they do not get
involved with just any issue. They get involved with serious issues. In fact, these are military men
and women who have served our country all across the country, and who have camped at
campgrounds. When they tell me that Mr. Paget has brought this camp form a cow pasture to one
of the top third in Canada, that means a lot to me, and that means a lot to our PC Party.
I would think that the Premier, in this day and age, with 21st-century transformational change,
would stop playing petty, old-time Liberal politics and help Mr. Paget. You are ruining this man’s
life, and if you are not concerned . . . You are ruining one man’s life.
019 11:15
I think this is a sad day, just before Christmas, when the Deputy Minister of Tourism contradicts
everything the Minister of Natural Resources is saying. The Premier has ordered his ministers to
shove Mr. Paget out. We are supposed to be helping New Brunswickers. We are supposed to be
helping them to build our province. He brought the tourism numbers to 45 000 visitors at this park.
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Mr. Premier, once again, will you stop sitting silent in this House? Will you help Mr. Paget, and help
the people of New Brunswick? Show him some support, give him back his lease.
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: My questions to the opposition would be these: Why did they threaten to
cancel his lease on December 5, 2001? Why did they threaten to cancel his lease on July 22, 2002?
Why did they threaten to cancel his lease on June 18, 2004? Why did they threaten to cancel his
lease on January 20, 2006? Why did they threaten to cancel his lease on October 30, 2006? I did not
do anything different from what the former government was about to do. I just made the decision.
Pulp and Paper Mills
Mr. Ashfield: My question is also for the Premier. On December 4, the Premier stated in this House,
when he was talking about the AbitibiBowater situation and the closure there: “This asset will allow
other entrepreneurs to come into the region. I know that the Minister of Business New Brunswick
has received a number of phone calls from a number of interested parties that we are now going to
bring to the attention of AbitibiBowater.”
In Motion 28, when we filed for information, we asked for all information in the possession of the
government related to any inquiries received by the Minister of Business New Brunswick
concerning the AbitibiBowater property in Dalhousie. The response to that: To our knowledge, there
have been no inquiries concerning the AbitibiBowater property in Dalhousie.
Mr. Premier, I would like to know from you which are the true facts?
Hon. S. Graham: Yesterday, I was attempting to provide the leadership on provincial issues. That
will require . . .
(Interjection.)
Hon. S. Graham: The behaviour of the opposition this morning is very unbecoming. They are not
even allowing me to answer a question, with the bellowing and heckling on the other side of the
House. This is an important issue, so I would ask for respect and decorum.
I want to be clear. Yesterday, we had a very important meeting with the CEO and President, David
Paterson, as well as with John Weaver, the Executive Chairman of AbitibiBowater. From that
meeting, along with the Minister of Natural Resources and the mayor of the region, Clem Tremblay,
AbitibiBowater has agreed now to extend the infrastructure at the mill until September. It will begin
dismantling the paper machines, because we recognize that it does not want to see a direct
competitor come in place. It is now allowing the opportunity for Business New Brunswick to work
in cooperation with AbitibiBowater to look at whether opportunities exist for business diversication
in that area.
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As well, as a sign of good faith, it has also agreed to winterize the mill this winter to allow the
infrastructure to remain in place. Yesterday, we had a very proactive meeting. Our government,
under my leadership, was attempting to sit down and work to find a proactive solution to a very
difficult situation today in Dalhousie.
Mr. Ashfield: Thank you, Mr. Premier, for the update on the situation in Dalhousie, but my question
was specific to words that you said in this House. I believe that we, and the people of New
Brunswick, are entitled to nothing less than the facts. You stated very clearly that there were a
number of other interested parties. In your discussions with the Minister of Business New
Brunswick, there were a number of interested parties. The department refers back and says that, to
its knowledge, there have been no inquiries.
These are important issues. We have to know which party is presenting the true facts. We have to
know that. Specific to my first question, I will ask the same question: Which are the facts?
Hon. S. Graham: The facts today are very simple. This mill announcement of the closure was
expected. Because of the difficult circumstances surrounding the value of the Canadian dollar, we
could not move proactively until a final decision was made. In fact, we had moved ahead of time
to put an offer on the table to allow Bowater to invest in the infrastructure and upgrade its
equipment. It chose not to proceed with the initiative we put on the table. That is why I spent
yesterday meeting with key Bowater officials to agree to allow the infrastructure such as the boilers
to remain in place.
020 11:20
There will be some ancilliary surplus equipment shipped out to their existing infrastructure across
North America. The actual infrastructure tangible, that is on the ground, and that does not pertain
to papermaking, will remain until September. The winterization of the mill will occur this year. That
will allow us to move forward, to look at other perspective investors in the region. My office,
personally, has attempted to solicit some work that can be initiated in that area, as I know the
Minister of Business New Brunswick has.
Only one week has transpired on this file. I would ask that the opposition be patient. We take this
issue very seriously. The Minister of Natural Resources is working now on management of the
license as well. We are working with sawmills in the region, such as Chaleur Sawmill, to continue
their operations. We are taking the proactive approach.
Mr. Speaker: Time. The time for question period is now over.