Hey? I don’t care! My goal is to educate the public on different issues and that’s the way it goes!
It’s a hobby of mine and it’s a darn shame that I don’t get paid for doing this BS!!!! But I enjoy it!!!
By the way. I wrote that 5 people died during the past month because of Alcoholism. This guy reminded me the number was six!
You know something? This is a story that the media should investigate but they won’t and that’s a darn shame!
Another problem the Alcololics and junkies goes through in the Capital is degrading!!!
Once they go into the family Services these so call case workers will shout at you throught these open cubicles - So? Do you still have a alcohol problem?
These workers are refusing to give privacy to the poor and this is not right!
These private conversations should be held in private!
The reason they are following this style is to make certain they don’t return! This is sickening!
They’re on the streets and no one cares!
The waiting list for the people to be on Methadone is huge. Here it is!!!!
I received this email a few hours ago! Read this one!!!
Charles, here are the numbers as of yesterday.
Methadone Update - August 9, 2005
1. The number of people who are currently in the Methadone Program.
2. The number of people who are currently on the Methadone Program
waiting list.
Addiction Services - Moncton:
1) 145 people in program
2) 179 people on waitlist (100 of the 179 are from Region 1)
Addiction Services - Saint John:
1) 52 people in program
2) 126 people on waitlist (97 of the 126 are from Region 2)
Addiction Services - Fredericton
1) 78 people in program
2) 98 people on waitlist (22 of the 98 are from Region 1)
Addiction Services - Miramichi
1) 111 people in program
2) 174 people on waitlist (114 of the 174 from Region 7)
FYI, people could be on a wait list for more than one centre. Before
admitting clients, each clinic checks with the other to ensure the
client is not receiving service elsewhere.
The scary part is that many people don't bother to be on that list because of the waiting time!!!
While these addicted people wait for their Methadone they will go on a crime spree by breaking in people’s home or sell their bodies on the streets!
Many will spread AIDS among the population and at the end?
The Government will pay dearly!
The kids are taking away from the addicted parent. The chance are they will be all screwed up and becoming a welfare recipient!
At the end, the Government will take care of them! Can you imagine the cost?
Aids, herpes and other deceases. It’s just terrible!
But as I wrote in the past, Bernard Lord just don’t care! Too bad so sad!!!!
During my six months protest, I decided to go at U.N.B. and Saint Thomas to collect some signatures.
I was right in the middle of the students and they knew better than the adults that there was a major problem with Ritalin on the campus!
No….these kids don’t have ADHD!
They snorts the Ritalin to pass their exams!
Can you imagine the state of mind our next generations going to be like?
Then again? The Government just don’t care!
Ottawa and New Brunswick must get together on this issue as soon as possible. This is a epidemic that must be confronted head on as soon as possible.
But then again? There’s many bureaucrats in the Capital who says- Who cares? Everyone has a choice in life! This is where the problem lies!
Higher up people look down at the poor and don’t care!
It’s so bad that I know of one addicted individual who’s on Dilaudid. The guy is totally out of control.
He steals and steals but he has only lasted in jail for a few weeks! The family wish that he would do longer time in jail but this never happen? You wish to
know why?
He’s a diabetic and he’s a bad one. Once in Jail, they have to transfer him at the hospital while a guard watches over him! My God? That cost a lot of
money to keep him behind bars.
So? What do they do?
They release the guy early and he does on a crime spree again and the police won’t touch him! I’m telling ya! The situation is totally out of control.
It’s just a matter of times till everything goes totally out of control in this Province. We need Methedone locations in all area of the Province as
sson as possible.
People are lobbying the Federal Government to give more money to other countries but
seriously?
Shouldn’t we take care of the problems in our own country first?
Prescription drug is a major problem in this Province but these bureaucrats just
don’t care!!!! This Province is going down very fast!!!
38 comments:
Hey! while you are educating public you must educate yourself too. The aid which is given to other counteries is sometimes for the same reasons, self-preservation. Given the AIDs epidemic in Africa it is bound to spread and if not checked the population of the globe can be wiped out. There are similar other issues. Educate yourself before you make these ignorant statements.
Your right on the money, The government should take care of its own FIRST and if we have some left over then spread it around!!!!
For every person who puts you down Charles there are 10 that praise you
for
the work that you do for the everyday person! Keep spreading the
message
and I will keep sending you e-mail address, thats the way it goes.
Come on..please watch the language...
Jackass is the name of animal who lacks brain what is wrong with that.
Ok here is the idiot’s remark on disabled community. Lord is racist and his supporters are taking swipes at disabled community.
______
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded.
# posted by Anonymous : 8:45 PM
under the following blog.
Tuesday, August 09, 2005
GOVERNMENT WORKERS SHOULD GO ON THE STREETS LATE AT NIGHT!!!!
.
It was not meant to put down Charles. Just to remind him of certain responsibility and show sensitivity. To help Africa on Aids is enlightened selfishness. Given the nature of world being global village and travels these diseases spread real fast and it is important that Aids is contained for the sake of the victims and for the sake of humanity.
I know exactly what you meant but I feel that we should take care of our people first! The Lord Government is always saying- We don't have the money to help the people on the streets! I find this odd!!!!
I called, faxed and email the director at ridgewood about a severly addicted 30 year old pregnant woman whom is on the verge of suicide, she actually told me IF she had to wait much longer than the past YEAR she has been waiting fo help. She cannot take it anymore.
She is selling her body, everything she owns, stealing from Family, etc...to fee this physically adictive dilaudud addiction.
The person that prescribed this lady these pills should be shot and pissed on, excuse the language but that is exactly how I feel.
This person has been waiting a long time I know I have made many many calls and emails on her behalf, fearing the worst would happen.
I have seen this person straight
(without drugs of any sort) and now I see her addicted to Dilaudid/Herion whatever she needs so she can at least partially function on a daily basis, when I say partially, i mean enough strength to get uop and shower and go get her next pill, so she is not so deathly sick!!!!!
I know first hand what these pills can do, I do not consider my self an addict, But once you are on these pills its VERY hard to get off them, EVEN if you follow the Doctors guidlines......They should ONLY be Given to the patients whom are VERY SICK from CANCER, etc...... as they will die with some dignity and less pain.
THE DR"S should be sued for given these people these pills and making them into addicts.and thier lives so damn miserable. Again they should also tell the patient about the potentially high addiction rate amongst users.
And the waiting list is obscene. IF they put me on a waiting list. I would be them on the same waiting list to pay my taxes, I would not declare income, if I had any, for the complete time while I was on this so called waiting List.
NOW I was told that these officals at Ridgewood have family going in front of others for the methadone program...can u imagine, there should be an investigation over this.
Anyhow, I have babbled on long enough, there IS alot more to say. But I get some mad when I even think about it. I hope the DR"s are making a good kickback from these deadly pills...they will be needing the money for a major laws suit called MALPRACTISE!
In the interest of generating some discussion and since someone brought it up - The AIDS epidemic.
Very serious issue in Africa and I can't say I'm familiar with why it's so out of control there. Canada and North America however are a different story. This is a controllable disease if people take responsibility. We often hear that people have it in the media but are rarely told how they got it. To turn on the news you'd swear every person was at risk but let's look at it.
Does anyone visiting this blog know of anyone who has HIV who a) isn't a homosexual b) doesn't engage in sex with others who engage in high-risk activity c) or isn't a drug user.
With the exception of kids who get it because their mother was infected or people who caught it through tainted blood, I've never heard of such a case but the AIDS lobby leaves that part out because it's a lot easier to get donations if you think you're at risk even though you've been married and in a monogmaous relationship for 20 years and don't do drugs. Time for a little truth in advertising on AIDS in North America at least.
Your thoughts?
The above comment is a strange one, there's tons of information on AIDS in Africa, just do a search or go to the World Health Organization website.
The above asks whether anybody knows somebody with AIDS who didn't get it from the following: gay sex, high risk sex (meaning unprotected sex I'm assuming), sharing needles. Then goes on to add a couple more: children of infected mothers, blood transfusions.
Yes indeed, there are FIVE ways of contacting it right there, and I am not aware of any others, so the claim that the AIDS lobby leaves this out seems very strange. This is exactly what education and programs aim at, which is to practise safe sex and offer programs for those suffering the disease.
For more info go to aidsnb.com, it's a provincial organization, not a 'lobby group' as far as I know.
I agree with 12:34 comments. Information on Aids is there if you want to know. It is also obvious that it is an international crisis and not confined to North America and with Global movement of poeple it is not easy to control in one country without taking into consideration bigger and global picture.
Sorry Spinks but your argument is as usuall convoluted and misleading.
Yes it's global but if you don't engage in the risky behaviour I mentioned before and as long as those with AIDS don't engage in blood terrorism, you will not get it - period.
AIDS NB IS a lobby group much like their partners at Planned Parenthood although they recieve some provincial funds. My point is that the strategy for dealing with AIDS is clearly wrong or the numbers of cases would be decreasing not increasing.
The solution provide by groups such as AIDS NB and PP is use a condom and all is well. While that works most of the time, it doesn't work all of the time.
This is the problem with the Lord Government current sex-ed program for schools. It's based entirely on the condom theory - if you use one you'll be fine. A generation of children are being taught that it's okay to have sex even if they're 12 years old as long as we use a condom. The program also promotes such things as anal sex as completly natural and acceptable. What the program doesn't mention is that anal sex is a far riskier activity when it comes to health. God in his wisdom wanted marraige to be between one man and one woman for life for good reason. It's to protect us. I know of no monogamous couples with any type of STD unless it was caught by blood transfusion or their mother had one.
This is the ideal society should at least be aiming for although I'll grant you it's not going to happen, however you don't throw in the towel and give up on your kids.
A condom is 87% effective IF used properly and offers no protection against HPV. I'll grant you that 87% is better than nothing but when it's your kid, it's the equivalent of loading a handgun, putting one bullet in the chamber, asking him to point it at his head and say, "Now pull the trigger, you'll probably be okay." Not good enough for my kid. I hope that's not good enough for yours either. Lord messed the sex-ed issue up big time and it's another factor that will cost him the next election.
Now Spinks you are all over the map, from religion, bible, morality and to other stuff. I will like to agree with you on some issues but most of it is irrelevant to the current discussion. You are better off giving that kind of speech in a church becuase it makes no sense in this cotext.
Yes, I must agree that the points above was where I thought those 'strange' arguments were headed. However, we don't make arguments about cancer, thryoid, heart disease, and kidney disease based on people's lifestyle. New Brunswick has the highest per capita of overweight people, but we don't judge them for health care. There is considerable research that obesity is NOT an individual's complete responsibility as many suggest, it is learned behaviour and genetics, both of which are beyond an individual's control. I know people who eat like pigs but never gain a pound and overweight people who hardly eat anything.
For sex, that is complete nonsense that AIDS NB is a lobby group. They exist primarily as a support mechanism for those with aids, that's clear from their website. Likewise the Kidney association collects money for research, obviously they have a PR department but that doesn't mean they are a lobby group. Lobbyists must register with the province, and if we didn't have such lousy access to information you could probably get a list of them.
The above DOES belong in a church. From a health point of view there is some validity to abstinence, the problem with the argument is that studies pretty clearly show that sexual activity, especially 'dangerous' sexual activity DECREASES with an increase in sexual education. The idea that a parent can tell a kid 'not to do it' really misses the boat. Again, genetics and behaviour enter into it. I remember hitting puberty and if some girl had said that I'd probably get a disease and she'd get pregnant and ruin my life I'd STILL probably have had sex-the drive was that strong. On the other hand, I know many who simply seemed to have zero interest in sex.
The argument also becomes a religious one once you start saying that 'God' intended sex between a husband and wife. We can get into theology here, but it's enough to note that no two people agree on religious precepts. Not to mention that many kids come from non-nuclear families, some with single parents, etc., and many young people also don't plan to get married. In other words- good luck with that!
Without education you ARE holding that loaded gun to a kids head and pulling the trigger. Take a look sometime at european countries where teenage pregnancy, STD's and abortions are practically non-existent. Every country tells the same thing-it all comes from education and the realization that 'this is going to happen'-if the teen decides on it.
Sexually transmitted diseases can be minimized, but trying to get kids to stop has been tried for centuries. For aids, we have to remember that youth is the only demographic with a marked increase, and this is at an age where sexual identity is not established (if it ever is). A guy could have sex with another guy simply because no girl will, and we live in an age where a lot of teens are so uninformed that they don't even think of oral sex as sex. The 'you reap what you sow' argument only works when you actually INFORM kids of the repercussions. Remember, you are talking from the point of view of an adult who knows all these things, many young people have no idea, and the internet can often completely mislead.
I'm at the opposite pole to the one above, in fact I think "Sex with Sue" should be required teen viewing. Her first principle appears to be "learn to pleasure yourself". If we weren't still in the sexual dark ages where kids are still taught that masturbation is evil, perhaps they'd discover that you can easily wait for a partner-but not necessarily for sex (hell I did til I was 18).
Interesting debate. I actually brought it up because of the comment at the top asking Charles to educate himself about AIDS.
As far as bringing up these points in a Church, what's the sense of that. That's preaching to the choir.
I'm simply raising the issue that AIDS NB and PP and the provincial government aren't telling the whole story.
I am not advocating no sex-education for the kids but they deserve to know the truth such as the failure rate of condoms and the no protection from HPV. Also, if we as a society are going to advocate things like anal sex, the kids need to have all of the information (and nowhere can I find on any of those sites -AIDS NB and PP) such as the "fact" that anal sex is a riskier behaviour from a health point of view. This is left out because it's considered not being politicallly correct. What is wrong with giving our children all the facts? These should also be included and they are deliberately left out.
"That's preaching to the choir." At least choir may listen to you because in this context your statements make no sense.
Just commenting on the first poster's comments. Feel free to not read my reflections if they're a waste of your time. That's why I put a name to the comments so people know who they're coming from. They can read them or pass them by. Thanks for reading.
Only on this site which is created to generate opinion can someone be harassed for having an opinion. Next to Charles, Spinks has got to be the most hated poster here and I don't know why either one is. If you don't agree with what they say, simply disagree with them, don't try to belittle anybody here. That's just disrespectful.
This is from the center for disease control: "While the effect of condoms in preventing HPV infection is unknown, condom use has been associated with a lower rate of cervical cancer, an HPV-associated disease."
Also, keep in mind that out of the 100 viruses associated with HPV's, very few of them (less than ten) are serious. In fact, if you go to the National Institute of Health they will tell you that the vast majority of cases show no symptoms whatsoever, and most clear up on their own. At best these are 'inconveniences' and shouldn't be ranked with AIDS.
For AIDS, again, you can go to the National Institute of Health and the CDC and they will tell you that it is not so much that anal sex is riskier, what is most important is that 'natural membrane' condoms not be used and that condoms be used correctly. Anal sex IS riskier, but only if the precautions aren't taken because the skin lining is thinner and condoms break more often. Both of these facts are at the PP website.
The specific criticisms of AidsNB and PP don't bear out either. AidsNB has no real sexual information online but has pamphlets that can be ordered. They link to many other sites though which have tons of such info. At the PP website you will note that they almost naturally assume that you aren't 'sleeping around', which makes it a somewhat conservative organization I think. Also, if you look under the "healthy relationships" heading, you will find all kinds of info about not being pressured into sex, and defining one's own limits. Perhaps your argument is that a giant banner should be placed on the site saying "Abstinence is the Best". Although they do mention this sporadically, I suspect they don't want to seem too 'anti sex' or else teens will naturally suspect them of having ulterior motives and avoid them.
If the only complaint voiced above is that 'anal sex is riskier', then we can put that at rest. If neither partner has the disease then of course it is not riskier. If a woman has sex with an aids infected man, the risk is in the effectiveness and proper use of the condom, and whether the woman is informed of his condition, not whether the sex is anal or vaginal (with precautions I mean). And of course if we are talking about gay men, then such options are limited by 50%.
To 3:22 PM poster. People get upset with Charles for totally different reasons. However, Spinks porblem is that he is so misleading and inconsistent. His own opinion does not match from one sentense to the other, from one para to the other and from one post to other. That is what people are reacting to. Most are saying make up your mind man and what the hell is your point?
Always happy to clarify my statements if you don't understand them. All you have to do is ask.
Planned Parenthood is far from a conservative organization. One of the offices in Alberta recommends more than 130 abortions to every one adoption so you see where I'm going there.
In fact the roots of Planned Parenthood's founder Margaret Sanger in the US back in the 20's or 30's was very suspect and PP attempts to distance themselves from her musings these days. She was so pro-abortion because she viewed it as a way to reduce the number of poor people and minorities. Basically her philosophy was use abortion as covert racism which is why PP offices in the US are often in minority and low income neighbourhoods. They're not allowed in Canada to run abortion clinics but in the US a huge chunk of their money comes from delivering abortions in their own clinics. I call that a massive conflict of interest.
Michael McKay who visits this site from time to time may want to weigh in as I know he is more versed than I on the subject but suffice it to say Planned Parenthood's advice when a woman comes in and is already preganant is almost always abortion first.
Little known fact. Planned Parenthood in Fredericton had it's United Way funding doubled this year and receives nearly twice as much as groups such as Meals on Wheels. My point is that if you do not believe in abortion and the killing of babies, be cautious in giving to the United Way. Just like any charity, check them out and make sure they share your values.
Now! What the hell PP has to do with AIDs which was under discussion and its global dimensions? The best analogy for your kind of argument will be that if you are in Saint John and want to travel to Fredericton you drive up to Grand Bay then turn towards St. Stephen when you hit the main highway you turn towards Saint John, cross Saint John and then you head towards Sussex, go up to Quispamsis and then turn towards Saint John again and then you head towards St. Martins and on and on. However you never leave the vicinity of Saint John and never make it to Fredericton. You can explain from here to eternity what you saw in your driving around but it will never get you to Fredericton. And that is the problem with your statements and opinions. Round and round it goes where it ends only Lord knows.
Once again, it's a free country, my name is on the posts to let you know who they're from. If you do not want to read them, find my name and don't read it.
However since you have continued to read, PP and AIDS NB are very closely related particularly in the Fredericton area and partner up on lobbying the government frequently. Board members on one often serve the other because their interests are similar. I'm simply offering a broader picture on what's behind these groups. These are the facts that do not get reported because reporters don't know or are spun by these group's PR people who are very good by the way. I think the name Planned Parenthood is an excellent choice because the name sounds so harmless. It's when you delve into their history and see where their money comes from (in the US - they would if they could in Canada), a clear picture develops. If you support them, that is your choice. Personally I don't believe in killing babies. Our federal government believes otherwise. One brief positive about Lord is that he's refusing to pay for this abortion "service" at a private clinic. Agreed, we're going way way off topic but since the interest still seems to be there, I'm willing to continue it for as long as the posters here like. I can't think of a more important topic than whether babies should live or die.
Again, since you missed it, the PP website talks about sex as THOUGH IT ONLY OCCURS BETWEEN ONE MONOGOMOUS COUPLE: THAT'S PRETTY CONSERVATIVE NOWADAYS.
In case you haven't noticed this ISN"T the US and it isn't eighty years ago. At that time virtually every social agency, including our government was involved in an extensive eugenics program.
For AidsNB here's a list of their services:
A toll-free HIV/AIDS Line
A Resource Library
a private workstation
A web site www.aidsnb.com
Individual counselling
Education sessions/consultations
Referrals
Policy consultations
Information displays
Condom distribution
Needle exchange program (Fredericton)
Support funds for persons living with HIV/AIDS
Treatment information
Advocacy
Peer support
Skills-building opportunities for persons living with HIV/AIDS
A Speakers Bureau
Awareness events
Volunteer opportunities
As you can see, there's quite a list there so you can understand why their funding may have been increased: maybe they needed it!
Check out planned parenthood at http://www.fredericton.ppfc.ca/unintendedpregnancy.htm
You'll notice here that ALL options are presented, and in fact abortion is listed LAST. The vast majority of info at the site is aimed at those keeping their child. Obviously the two groups are going to work closely together since they are in a similar field, I don't see why that's a negative thing, it's far more cost effective.
But if we get down to brass tacks, I quite agree about abortion. So here is where people should really re-evaluate their ideologies. The country with the lowest abortion rate is the Netherlands, with 3 abortions per 1000 teens and emphasizes full education. Compare it with the radically abortion unfriendly and sex-ed unfriendly States which has 27 abortions per 1000 teens. So if you want to lower abortions, it may be a good idea to copy those successful policies. People get pregnant because they have unprotected sex, simple as that. Make sure they know it, and provide condoms and you will decrease abortions. The other side is to do like the US educational system which in most cases stresses the 'abstinence' (while society preaches the opposite) is the only way. We KNOW which system is better because we have the numbers.
IF you REALLY want to decrease abortions and don't just want to enforce your ideology on everybody else then you might want to go to the library and check out "Safer Sex" by Evelyn Lerman.
New Brunswick and Alberta both have conservative governments who are not abortion friendly (in fact that's all they'll stand up to the feds about), both are two of only four provinces where abortions have gone up. In general Canada is seeing abortions go down, because MOST provinces are smartening up and providing full education. Plus the internet and television sex talk shows are doing the job that our government refuses to.
To 10:01, you agree with abortion and you are entitled to your opinion. The Supreme Court and feds agree with you as well.
As PP and Morgentaler will never answer this and neither will anyone who writes a letter to the editor in support of abortion, and you seem willing to discuss this (which I applaud by the way, it's better than what often goes on here), I'd like to ask someone who supports abortion this question? Why does the one innocent person (the baby) have to die? (a brutal death I might add, sucked out, frequently limb by limb and thrown in the medical waste) I just don't understand how a civilized society does that. 800 babies killed between the DECH and Morgentaler in Fredericton last year alone. 800 future citizens wiped out and our governments cry about our population dropping.
A book would be needed to answer the 'why's'. As a vegetarian and a buddhist I am horrified by the systematic destruction of animals for food. Entire species are cultivated only to be horribly killed, animals which by the way possess far more self awareness and feel more pain than a fetus. All so that people can get far more protein than what is good for them and effectively damage their health. Entire populations of species which exist nowhere else are wiped out for such spurious excuses as a 'mall'. Dogs and cats are euthanized simply because 'we' feel that 'it's better' than having them roam the streets (better for whom?-life may be tough but if we asked people who lived on the street I doubt they'd choose euthanasia.)
On the human side it gets more absurd, people nonchalantly shop at walmart knowing full well those low prices come from chinese and other third world slave labour and put their own local industries out of work. Our society deems it more beneficial that five corporations use of 'the land' takes priority over everyone elses, so that they can make tons of money while other sectors live in poverty with no land of their own. Other people are criminalized with their freedom taken away because they want to smoke a natural occurring plant while pharmaceutical drugs far more powerful are made readily available.
That's the philosophical angle, the 'why's' just keep on coming. Legally, the arguments were made that abortions WILL occur anyway, and without oversight they will be 'backroom' ones which are infinitely more dangerous.
The other argument is that a fetus is not 'self aware', which is backed up by child physiological and neurological studies of infants. This is why there is a 'cutoff' date.
The other side of 'why' is of course the woman. So we need to ask why women abort. The vast majority of cases of abortion are 'unplanned'-hence the name. If you read a book on sexuality such as the one mentioned you'll note that peer pressure and ignorance are the two reasons pregnancies occur.
So once again we get back to education, people 'assume' that kids will somehow find this stuff out, but the reality is different. As a society if WE refuse to educate youth, then obviously WE are culpable for the outcome, just like if we refuse to tell people about laws, we can't be surprised if they're broken. We control all aspects of children's lives for much of their time, if they don't know these things, its OUR fault.
However, not all abortions are teen ones-'young women' also get abortions, in fact I think women in their twenties get the most (not sure, you can research that but I remember seeing a table). Then they decrease as age increases.
Education still enters into it, if a young person is not educated they will turn into an uneducated yound adult. However, 'economics' DEFINITELY enters into it because we KNOW that single parenthood is a one way ticket into poverty. Single mothers are definitely the lowest income earners in our society.
We also have to remember that many young women either have careers that may be compromised and most have jobs (like everyone else) that have next to no security, meaning they know they will simply be fired or have their hours cut back so badly that they can't live off it.
There are also problems from the health field. I know of many women who complain because they can't get the 'morning after pill'. At this stage of course there isn't even a fetus, yet many doctors for religious reasons STILL see it as 'abortion'-although you can't abort something that isn't a fetus. However, in NB you aren't allowed to simply go to a different doctor.
If you change the above, have full scale educational programs, relate them on television, video, even music. If you make it 'normal' then that would make a huge change. Change government policy-we know it's possible, just take those millions we just gave Irvings and give to corporations each year and put them into government programs and enact stricter laws to protect single mothers from nefarious employers.
Once you do all those things then we can have this discussion, because without those things then abortion is quite justified. We can say we arent' interested in such things and simply make it illegal, that won't make it go away, any more than it makes pot or prostitution go away, but then WE aren't responsible (of course we ARE, but we can abrogate that responsibility since our state says its illegal).
Once those things are done then we can have the discussion again. This would be because obviously if girls and boys KNOW how it works, they will rarely get pregnant. If they do get pregnant then we would have societal benefits which will bring them to term for adoption. With the morning after pill, that would only leave the most mistaken radical cases which would make abortion more of an anomaly.
After all the above is done and we want to attack it on moral grounds we at least have some footing because the only ones left would be women who refuse ALL contraception methods (including the MAP) and use abortion as a form of birth control. No doubt some of those cases occur, but until the above changes are made we don't know how many, because without the economic and political and educational changes we can't distinguish between them (meaning somebody could be using abortion as a birth control method because the others are not accepted or because they dont' know any better).
You guys are too thick into abortion and stuff. Our other problem is Lord government which is screwing the whole province. We got to bring change there first. Sqandering of public funds continues. Lord continues to give to big business and tax the oridinary folks more and more. This is a totally unacceptable situation.
I'll just never see killing a baby as being justified no matter what the circumstance, particularly in the gruesome way it's done. Taking the life of another because of two people's actions is just plain wrong. It's a consequence and the only innocent pays the ultimate price. (The drunken uncle argument doesn't happen as often as some pro-abortion advocates would have the public believe).
You have presented your view in a well thoughtout way and I respect that.
I'm just surprised that often the same people who defend animals with such vigour and are horrified by their treatment have no problem with killing a human being and are able to justify it because perhaps the baby doesn't feel pain even though it has organs, eats, produces waste, moves, etc. It seems that animals have taken precedent over human life for some people, perhaps not you in particular, but some certainly view it that way.
However, I understand your thinking process behind it and it's more than anyone will often get from the media so your candid comments are appreciated.
I am not an animal activist, but I certainly respect those who are, people have to pick their battles to spend time fighting. I think it's completely false that anybody goes into an abortion thinking that it's anything but traumatic for all those involved. A related problem is the educational system that doesn't produce enough female doctors, I know of many cases (this is in general though) where male doctors are involved and obviously do not have the sensitivity to deal with this (this has been a problem in gynecology for decades)
I'm personally always surprised that many who are virulantly anti-abortion also tend to be conservative (I don't know about here, but in general) and are helping to make sure that education isn't accomplished and that government keep from instituting the programs that would get rid of the need for abortions. If you really are so opposed then like I said, read the book "Safer Sex" and get involved in school boards and making sure kids know how to avoid getting pregnant. Anybody can be horrified by life's terrible trauma's, if you don't DO something then really, you can't expect people to take you seriously.
As for the other poster, this is an old thread so go elsewhere if it's not to your liking. If you are looking to support some policy or another let us know and we'll perhaps change tactics. We haven't even gotten into this government's handling of this issue, except a few remarks, which shows just how much dialogue such issues need. The saddest thing is that we do not live in a democracy so people often take extreme positions simply because they know it's all hypothetical. The government is going to do what it wants anyway. However, we go where debates lead us, I for one always get an education because I research my comments before hand so I don't spout bullplop. If you just want 'opinions' read the Irving news.
Abortion issue is totally irrelevant here. Wrong forum.
Only comment which should be made here is that you bring a kid in this world and then have no food and proper up bringing, no schooling and streets and drugs here I come. What favour did you do to this person by bringing him/her in this world. That is what unwanted pregnancies are. Should women not be given a choice in this instead of imposing on them. Also when life actually begins(right the day of conception or later) is a great debate in itself
10:46am - As mentioned earlier I'm all for a complete sex-education in schools and that's part of my concern with what kids are getting in N.B. Too much of it is glossed over IE : anal sex, abortion, etc. Kids should know what happens in an abortion and be given the whole picture.
I fully believe they should be given the side you mentioned (and they are) that some believe it's just tissue and that it's not a big deal but they should also be told that others view the baby as as a human being and that baby is sucked out of the mother's womb in pieces. That part is left out because it doesn't make people feel very good. Education however is supposed to be learning a variety of things and since AIDS NB and PP claim that's what they want then give the kids everything, even the ugly stuff.
NB's sex education program use to be on-line at gnb.ca in the education file. They pulled it for a while and I'm not sure if it's back again or not.
As to the last poster, I agree with 10:46am, move on if you don't like the discussion, no one is forcing you to be here. However I will say this to your comments about choice and this is a whole debate in itself. The one innocent should not have to pay with his/her life by being dismembered before even being given a chance to breathe. If you have children take a look at them and think about that. If you don't you wouldn't understand.
So we find an awful lot of agreement. However, we are 'geezers', we don't know SPECIFICALLY what is being taught, until we get some kids on here we don't know.
I know a person who went in for birth control pills-that's another issue we haven't even touched and the MAN just assumed she wanted an abortion. He was a doctor but a VERY bad doctor who made all kinds of inappropriate remarks. Because there are bad doctors or bad people working somewhere is no reason to attack the industry though.
If sex education WAS being taught in schools in such a way then PP wouldn't have to do so much education, however, we KNOW that sex ed was a huge issue and many parents ARE conservative and simply didn't want this stuff talked about-hence the problems we have.
I seriously doubt anything is 'glossed over' in sex ed, as I said, the special protective measures necessary for anal sex are covered even at the PP website, so a full fledged sex ed class would definitely cover it. Anal sex is not just a gay thing, teen girls are a pretty close second since they often want to avoid getting pregnant, at least in surveys I saw from the seventies and eighties. The question is: do we KNOW what specifically is taught in sex ed classes since that big blowup a year or so ago?
That makes a lot of this conversation moot because we just don't know. Perhaps I'm off base and every kid is given great sexual education information, perhaps spinks is off base because high risk sex and abortion is covered in detail-we just don't know.
I would suspect, however, that the grisly details are left out simply because it is already a traumatic experience for the 'mother'. I suspect you would want it as traumatic as possible to show a mother the real repercussions of her actions-that's a valid point, but a debateable one I think. Maybe you can't save that fetus' life, but you can very easily save a cow or pig's life-just change what you eat tonight. You'll also feel better and drop your cholesteral at least ten points.
Abortion is the choice which womenn should make. A bible-thumping man has no right to impose that decision on them. A baby should not be asked to raise a baby when by some unfortunate circumstances 13-14 yrs old girl becomes pregnant becuase of unfortunate circumstances. What if she was raped by her own father. There are creeps like that around.
The best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies is education. Otherwise you are bringing more and more customers for dilaudin and Oxicontin in this world.
Some unfortunate curcumstance? Unless there's a big star in the sky and three wisemen on the way, it almost always is a mutual decision. Again, the drunken uncle story hasn't happened in the 800 abortions which take place in Fredericton each year.
Clearly you're not going to convince me that killing a baby is okay and I'm not going to convince you that allowing the death of a baby is murder. Again, I appreciate the discussion and I think it's the first time I haven't been personally attacked in a discussion here. Hurray for small victories.
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