THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE WAR OF WORDS BETWEEN DANNY WILLIAMS AND THE McCARTNEY'S!!!!

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KING: We're back. Remaining with us are Paul McCartney and Lady Heather Mills McCartney on this issue of the sea hunt. And we're joined now in St. Johns by Danny Williams, "Newfoundland and Labrador" premier.

And you have heard, Danny, the statements in the past half hour. What's your overall response concerning your government's position to the seal hunt?

DANNY WILLIAMS, PREMIER OF NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR, CANADA, DEFENDS ANNUAL SEAL HUNT: Well, first of all, Larry, let me welcome you to Canada. And I want to thank the McCartneys and yourself for this opportunity to basically state our case.

Just so your own viewers can get some orientation, Newfoundland and Labrador is the most easterly part in North America. And I know from your award-winning shows on September 11th, we had 70 American planes came down here, and 13,000 of the passengers, American passengers found homes in Newfoundland and Labrador for about a week.

So we welcomed them into our homes and welcomed them into our hearts. And some of those homes were homes that were occupied and opened by sealers and their families. So I just want to give you some relativity. And I am sure you already know, but I would like your viewers to know that as well.

I thank you for the opportunity. I may start off by, I think, my concern here is that the McCartneys are not completely informed. I recognize that they're active. I recognize their zeal. I love animals myself. I have two of my three daughters all three daughters actually , but two are animal lovers in the biggest kind of a way.

So for the record, I want to state that certainly myself and my people in Newfoundland and Labrador don't condone inhumane activity towards animals nor do we condone hunting or fishing that would lead to the extinction or endangerment of any species. I want to make that very clear for the record.

Having said that, I want to start off with just a quote from the World Wildlife Federation. I actually had an e-mail from them this morning because they knew that I was going on with you this evening and had this opportunity.

They e-mailed to let us know of their support that they felt that this was not a conservation issue. And I also want to read a quote from a group of veterinarians that were hired by the World Wildlife Fund. They said that the sea harvest is conducted in a humane way.

And the veterinarians concluded that the Canadian harp seal hunt is professional, and highly regulated by comparison with seal hunts in Greenland and the North Atlantic. It has the potential to serve as a model to improve humane practice and reduce seal suffering with the other hunts.

So I think it's important that we state the other side of the case. And I'm very concerned that the McCartneys are not getting all the information.

H. MCCARTNEY: Greenland, they're actually boycotting your products because they're disgusted at how inhumane your seal hunt is.

WILLIAMS: If I had an opportunity, Heather, just for a minute, and I've just got to caution you, I was concerned in your statements where you talk about inhumane and barbaric and archaic.

H. MCCARTNEY: Archaic. Sorry. Let me clear that. I don't mean barbaric. That's just a terminology I used with the land mines. I find it archaic, brutal and cruel.

WILLIAMS: Archaic may have been a fair term in the past. I do appreciate you saying that. Because that was something that concerned me. The other comment that concerned me last night was when you compared this to clubbing young babies, young human babies. And I think that that's actually taking the argument to the extreme.

H. MCCARTNEY: I didn't actually say that last night. I didn't say that last night. I said can you imagine if somebody took your baby away at one month and it was told it was an independent adult, as a lot of the pups are clubbed at one month old. I'll clear that up.

KING: Danny, let me ask you...

WILLIAMS: Actually just let me just clarify, Larry for just one second.

KING: Why must they be clubbed?

WILLIAMS: Well, let me tell you two things. First of all, the comment that was made last night was that, you know, baby bludgeoned to death. And again that's sensational. And that doesn't help the McCartneys' arguments nor does it help our argument.

First of all, the information that hasn't been given is that 90 percent of these seals are killed by bullet. They're not all clubbed. This was a practice in the past. The club that was used years ago was a Norwegian instrument that was deemed to be the most efficient way of killing seals.

When in fact now 90 percent of all seals are actually killed by bullet. It's very effective. It's very efficient and it's very quick.

There's another aspect, which I would like to point out to you, that this seal hunt since 1970 has tripled. It has gone from 2 million seals to 5.8 million seals. That's actually 12 times every person in Newfoundland and Labrador.

If we allow this seal population to completely overpopulate, the inhumane consequences of that is that these seals will starve. We now have a situation...

H. MCCARTNEY: These seals represent the seals of not just Canada, but right up to Greenland. It's completely normal for there to be millions of seals. So let's put it in the right context.

KING: I've got to get in a quick break and then we'll come right back. We'll come right back with Sir Paul McCartney -- let Paul get a word in too -- and Lady Heather McCartney and Danny Williams. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ken McCloud (ph) is ready for the annual Harp seal hunt off Prince Edward Island. He is also prepared for the attention Paul McCartney and the American Humane Society bring to the hunt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've come to get used to the fact that celebrities are coming up here and the animal rights groups using them to try. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would just like them to see our side of it like it is a viable industry. It has been highly regulated. It is well looked after. Just because they say to shut it down, does that give them the right to shut it down?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Department of Fisheries and Oceans estimates 4,000 to 5,000 people in eastern Canada rely on the hunt and the $20 million it provides to the local economy. So there's a lot riding on the actions of celebrities like McCartney.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, it could mean $10,000 to $20,000 for every member of the crew, which is significant this time of year. It sure helps catch up the winter bills.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: PFO is accusing the American Humane Society of spreading false information about the hunt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're back. And before Danny Williams speaks again, Paul, do you want to say something?

P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, I'd like to take Danny's point that -- what happened in the 50s and 60s was, there was an over culling of the seal population. And they dropped to a dangerously low level. Where then the government had to step in and actually stop it happening in order to maintain the population.

What is happening now is over the last three years, that level of killing is happening again. And so even though at this moment in time there may be enough seals, the population could drop in the same way as it did in the 50s and 60s. And this is what we feel could be dangerous.

WILLIAMS: Paul, I can assure you that, you know, I am in possession of all the facts on this. There are all about there percent, and that is all of the seals that have actually been taken. And what I had the opportunity...

H. MCCARTNEY: Your department actually assured us that the cod levels wouldn't go down the year before they have to stop the fishing because the cod levels -- you're the same department that showed the cod levels were fine.

WILLIAMS: What I was about to...

KING: All right. Let Danny finish and then Paul. Danny?

WILLIAMS: What I was about to say, Paul, is that what's actually happening on the ground in Newfoundland and Labrador is we're now finding that some of these starving seals are actually going into fresh water rivers in order to feed. That's actually happening. And another misconception which was corrected for you last night...

H. MCCARTNEY: Because you're overfishing. Because you're overfishing.

WILLIAMS: ...on the plane last night on the way to Prince Edward Island that you were on the misunderstanding that this species was in danger. But an official from DFO indicated to you that this species was actually strengthening significantly and now the herd has grown to three times the quantity in the 70s. So the species...

P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, well, now that's true, Danny. That is true at this moment, as I say. But this is the kind of thing that happened -- that people were saying before the 50s and the 60s, and then they were -- they reached dangerously low levels, which then did lead to the underpopulation. And you were in serious danger then.

And you now are killing the seals at the same levels. The last three years, you've been killing the seals at the same levels as happening in the 50s and 60s. So there is this possibility.

Now, also this gentleman you mentioned that we did meet on the plane. He came up and said can I put our side of the argument? We said, yes, of course you can. We're not just coming here just to tell the Canadians what to do. We're interested in a debate. We want to find out for ourselves.

He said -- we said, well, the first thing we're hearing, and we've heard it from a lot of people, I heard it from a local MP, is that the real reason why you need to keep the seal population down is because they are depleting the cod stock.

Now, the man from the DFO himself said that is not true. And so it isn't true. In fact the seal -- the harp seals themselves kill a lot of the cod predators. And the only single reason that the cods have been depleted so much is human overfishing.

WILLIAMS: Paul, you haven't heard me say that that's the reason. There is some evidence that could be part of the reason. But that's not why the seal hunt takes place.

KING: Well, what do you make of the argument that most of them are shot, Heather?

H. MCCARTNEY: Well, it's just not true. It's complete and absolute rubbish. It's just not true. Most of them are shot and clubbed in a hacky pick thing, which is a tall, long hook and then they hit them once with it and drag them along the ground. And they only use the one bullet. Again, because it's used for fur. It's not used for any other thing.

P. MCCARTNEY: There are two main hunts here too. Where we went out yesterday, that's for the young seals. That is where most of the clubbing takes place. And I think what Danny's talking about, there's another seal hunt that happens from boats. And that is at the front. And I think that is probably where most of the shooting occurs.

But the point is, you know, however it's done, the thing is, I defy you to show any reasonable-minded person this footage and get them to say, you know, that looks humane to me.

KING: We'll take a break and come back, and I'll ask Danny to justify as stated by Heather. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Danny, two questions. One, what do the Canadian people think of this? And two, what about this point of eco-tourism that you could actually forget all this and increase your tourism ten-fold?

WILLIAMS: Larry, let me tell you a couple of things. First of all, Heather is incorrect. There are 90 percent of these animals that are basically killed by firearms. So I had to set the record straight because I live here and I actually know.

As well, you know, there's an unfair comparison that if you go into a beef slaughter house or a pork slaughter house or a chicken slaughter house and you put white sheets down on the floor, well then you're going to see blood. And that's not nice and that's not pleasant.

But if you take the McCartneys' arguments to the extreme that they're willing to go, there will be no beef slaughter, there will be no pork slaughter, there will be no chicken slaughter, there will be no fish in restaurants, there will be no eggs, there will be no milk for children in school.

H. MCCARTNEY: That's rubbish. We're not arguing that.

WILLIAMS: That is the extent. That is the extent of the argument.

H. MCCARTNEY: Try not to diverse it. It's rubbish. People eat meat. People eat fish. People don't eat the seals, and they use it for fashion.

KING: All right. Heather let him finish.

H. MCCARTNEY: It's not relevant.

WILLIAMS: The other thing that's very relevant here, Larry, is that -- and I don't attribute this to the McCartneys, but this is where I think this is where they're being used. These organizations, the IFAW, Green Peace, PETA raise significant amounts of money. There are hundreds of millions of dollars that are being raised by these organizations.

And let me tell you the FBI right now have a file opened in their terrorism division investigating organizations like this, including the PETA organization, from a terrorism perspective.

So there are some huge issues here that if we had a couple of hours to go into, I would love to deal with. But what I would like to do...

H. MCCARTNEY: Why are you going off on a tangent? Why are you not sticking to the seal hunt, the fact that it's used for fashion, the fact that they are inhumanely killed and hours and hours and years and years of footage to prove it.

Why don't you stick to the subject? You're such a politician. You keep going off on irrelevant things like beef that people eat, fish that people eat. People don't eat seals.

WILLIAMS: This is about propaganda. This is about using superstars like your husband. I invite you to come to Newfoundland and Labrador. I will provide you with information. I will provide you with documentaries that will indicate that people from the IFAW who witness this hunt and said there was nothing wrong with it, were fired by the IFAW.

I want you to come to Newfoundland and Labrador. I want you to know the truth and the facts. And I'm certain that you will partner with us and move this forward because I think we can convince you that this is a very humane undertaking.

P. MCCARTNEY: Well, we're here, Danny. You don't need to invite us. Thanks for the invitation, but we're here. We're actually in the studio here. We are in Newfoundland. And we saw the seals yesterday.

And the point is, you know, what we're making -- the point we're making here is that this is inhumane. No matter how much you say it is humane, it isn't. This is a small percentage of the fishermen's income. No matter how much you say it isn't.

This is nothing to do with the depletion of the cod stocks. That's due to human overfishing. And there are plenty of ideas that the Canadian people might be very interested in, in the same way as whale watching has become a huge industry, which used to be whale hunting.

It now -- and the point about this is, in the international arena, Canada is known as a great country, a great people. And this creates a stain on the character of the Canadian people internationally.

H. MCCARTNEY: Why are you so against the seal hunt being stopped? Why do you not want to give the sealers an alternate income and find a solution here so that the federal government, yourselves and the charities can work together to make sure -- the only people that will be harmed in a very small income way -- but still that's the only justification here, if there are finances taken from the sealers.

There's no other justification on this. Why don't you want that to happen? Why don't you want to have peace talks? Why do you want to keep going to war and doing this to the animals?

WILLIAMS: Heather, first of all, Paul, you're in Prince Edward Island now. And I'm in Newfoundland and Labrador. I'm inviting you to come to my province to see that. We are supported by the World Wildlife Fund, a very reputable organization. This is supported by the United Nations and the International Society for Conservation. These are worldwide policy speakers who speak on behalf of the international community. They see nothing wrong with it. And I just want to make your audience aware...

H. MCCARTNEY: And you don't pay anybody in any of those organizations to oversee...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: ...And I am really sorry that the McCartneys are being used.

KING: I've got to get a break in. We'll be back with some remaining moments.

H. MCCARTNEY: We're not being used.

KING: Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Danny Williams, premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, Heather did ask a good question, why not end it and look for alternative ways? Why not end it?

WILLIAMS: Well, you have to end it on the basis that there's something wrong here. But this is about striking a balance in the ecosystem. And, you know, this is being done properly. It's being done humanely. It is a proper undertaking.

The product that comes from seal is not only fur, it's meat. It provides shelter. It provides fuel. It also provides omega-3 oils, which are used for heart problems, arthritis problems, menstrual problems, liver problems. So there's a worthwhile product.

But, Larry, if I could just add one point. And I would like to pick up on something that Paul said. He's talked about the cod and the endangered species. I would welcome Paul and Heather to come and take up the cause for the fact that our very rich cod stocks and ground fish stocks have been virtually extinguished by overfishing by foreigners from the European community.

I plead with them to take up that cause and see if we can restore those stocks that will create employment for the people that live in my province.

P. MCCARTNEY: OK, Danny. But the thing is, one cause at a time. We're here because in three weeks time, the baby seal pups that we saw and that the viewers of this program have seen are due to be clubbed to death or shot, whichever way you want it. Their lives are due to end.

And in this day and age, in the 21st century, there's got to be an alternative. People look at those pictures, people all over the world look at those pictures, right now, and you will not find one person unless it's you, who says, you know what, that looks good to me. That looks OK. Everything's hunky-dory. The point is, it isn't hunky-dory.

It's disgraceful. And the Canadian people have been polled, and when they've been asked in a poll that's not loaded with all sorts of what-if questions, they are asked, do you know about the seal hunt, do you want it to continue, a majority of the Canadian people say they don't want it to continue.

So we're trying to look at all the sides of the argument, and we're just trying to offer you, Stephen Harper, and the Canadian people a possible way out of this mess.

As I said before, you've got a boycott that's costing you millions at the moment on the Red Lobster front. And these are the kind of things that would end if the seal hunt ended. It's a win-win situation, Danny. Go for it.

WILLIAMS: Paul, I've said to you, you also have to look, there are 6 million white tail deer that are being killed in America. There are 200 million cows that are being slaughtered...

P. MCCARTNEY: Yes, but you're getting off the issue.

H. MCCARTNEY: You keep going off it.

P. MCCARTNEY: We're here to talk about the seal hunt.

WILLIAMS: There are 2 billion chickens that are being slaughtered. Why is the fuzzy seal photo-op the important one? Why aren't you down in a slaughter house where cows are being killed or calves are being killed or lambs are being killed or chickens are being killed?

H. MCCARTNEY: Think about it. OK. Let's forget that you don't care about the humanity.

WILLIAMS: It's quite obvious...

KING: One at a time.

WILLIAMS: It's the easy photo-op where you can get the best picture, so, you know, it's obviously that...

KING: Danny, let her speak.

H. MCCARTNEY: How can your accountants not look at a 129 million lost in snow crab exports to America. One hundred and twenty-nine million lost snow crab exports to America. Sixteen million is the lost...

WILLIAMS: Heather, if you and Paul have your way -- if you and Paul take your argument to where you want to go with it, the Red Lobsters will close, the McDonald's will close, the restaurants will close because they all sell beef or poultry. H. MCCARTNEY: We're not trying to have them to close.

P. MCCARTNEY: We're trying to open them.

H. MCCARTNEY: We're trying to open them, so that they don't boycott.

WILLIAMS: That's exactly where it goes.

P. MCCARTNEY: Danny, the point is...

H. MCCARTNEY: We are trying to stop the boycotts on Canada.

KING: One at a time.

P. MCCARTNEY: Danny, can I just have a word here? The point is, you're getting off the issue. You're talking about all sorts of other issues. And that's very like a politician to do. We're trying to just keep on the issue here.

We mentioned that there is a boycott that is really hurting Canada, a boycott against Canadian seafood. Now instead of wandering off the issue, Heather's saying to you, why, if the seal hunt was finished and good alternative methods like eco-tourism, like licensed buy-back programs, which have been done before in whale watching -- if that were to be considered by the prime minister of Canada, there is a way forward here where even economically the fishermen would be better off.

The boycott would end. The minute the seal hunt ends, that boycott goes away. And so we're looking to help, not confuse the issue.

WILLIAMS: And Paul, if you had all the information, and you were properly informed I would welcome your help. But the problem with the boycott is that it is based on misinformation. And people from the IFAW, independent scientists -- veterinarians have actually looked a this and said that this is humane. The World Wildlife Fund has said it is humane.

These people are not being misled. These people know the facts they are scientists. I encourage you...

H. MCCARTNEY: Are you saying you are not losing millions as a country -- you are not losing millions in export of snow crab? Are you saying that you are not losing millions on people that are boycotting? Is that what you are saying?

KING: I am sorry. We are out of time. We appreciate everybody's participation. We hope the public at large learned more. Our friends in Canada learned more.

And we thank all of our guests, Paul McCartney, Sir Paul McCartney, Lady Heather Mills McCartney and Danny Williams, the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Meanwhile, it is time for "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Good night.

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