QUESTION PERIOD AT THE NEW BRUNSWICK LEGISLATURE. < Jeudi >

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Équité salariale
M. S. Graham : Ma question cet après-midi est pour le ministre des Ressources humaines. Comme
vous le savez, c’est l’ancien gouvernement libéral qui a introduit l’équité salariale dans la partie I
de la fonction publique.
L’année dernière, votre gouvernement a publié un document intitulé Faire face à l’impératif
économique, qui est en fait un plan d’action pour traiter de l’écart salarial au Nouveau-Brunswick.
À la page 4 du plan d’action, on fait référence aux 14 indicateurs du succès et on dit que les mêmes
indicateurs seront utilisés pour la surveillance continue, faisant part conséquemment des ajustements
stratégiques à apporter tout au long du processus.
Ma question pour le ministre est simple. Pourrez-vous présenter à l’Assemblée législative un compte
rendu de ces indicateurs et un document faisant état des dates butoirs pour la réalisation de l’équité
salariale dans le système scolaire, dans le système de santé et dans la partie IV de la fonction
publique qui comprend aussi les employés de la CSSIAT, soit la Commission de la santé, de la
sécurité et de l’indemnisation des travailleurs?
Hon. D. Graham: Certainly, as the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned, that is something we
are looking at. As a department, we are looking at all the options. I believe our commitment was for
the next few years, and we will certainly take that into consideration.
Mr. S. Graham: The fact is, that nearly a year has passed, and your government still has not
established clear benchmarks to evaluate your progress. In fact, the Pay Equity Act for Part I of the
civil service was proclaimed in 1989. In the 1990s, the implementation of Part I of the civil service
was monitored by a Pay Equity Bureau under the Department of Finance and the Board of
Management. There was no ongoing monitoring for pay equity in Part I of the civil service, and the
Pay Equity Bureau established in that Act has since disappeared, except that it now exists on paper.
What reassessment process has been completed to ensure that pay equity is still being achieved in
Part I of the civil service? The minister cannot give us any clear deadlines on Parts II, III, and IV.
Can he at least tell us what he is doing in monitoring Part I?
Hon. D. Graham: I certainly do value the public service, and we are committed to working with
each sector. We are making sure that each one has a fair wage. As I mentioned before, we are
looking at all the options, and we will certainly continue to do that.
Mr. S. Graham: It is a sad day in this province when the best that the minister can state to this
Chamber is simply “we are looking at all the options”. There is a clear timetable that has to be
established for Parts 11, 111, and IV of the civil service. My question to the minister pertained to
Part I. What reassessment has been completed, to date, to ensure that pay equity is still being
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achieved in Part I of the civil service? That is the question he has not answered. Can he please
attempt to answer that question?
Hon. Mr. Lord: I am pleased to step in, because our government has put forward a comprehensive
plan to deal with the issue of wage gap in New Brunswick. The plan put forward by the member for
Saint John-Kings is far-reaching. It is a plan that probably goes further than any other jurisdiction
in North America. It is a comprehensive plan to get real results. As the member stated this morning,
the results are already there. The wage gap that used to be about 22% has gone down to about 14%.
Our target is to bring it down to 0. To achieve that goal will require more than empty rhetoric from
the opposition. It requires a real type of leadership. It takes leadership to reduce the wage gap, and
our government has taken the leadership to reduce the wage gap.
Mr. S. Graham: I can appreciate that the Premier had to step in today to help the Minister of
Human Resources, who clearly did not answer any of the questions pertaining to Part I, Part II, Part
III, or Part IV of the civil service, for which he is responsible. The best he could muster up for an
answer was: We are looking at it.
I am glad that the Premier has spoken today on pay equity, because it is an important issue, and I
appreciate that. It is important that we work on both sides of the House to eliminate the wage gap
that currently exists. Unfortunately, today it is the women working in these vital services who are
not receiving the compensation that they should for the work they provide. The most telling
statement about your government’s lack of commitment into pay equity is in the last sentence of
your action plan, where you state: The desired trend is that by 2010, the hourly gap will be reduced.
018 14:05
It was reported this week that the wage gap has decreased by 1.1% since last year. Does this mean
that your government has already achieved its desired trend and, at this rate, it will take 15 years for
the wage gap to close? What is your government’s hourly wage gap goal for 2010?
Hon. Mr. Lord: The plan that we have put in place is paying dividends. Our government is
committed to reducing the wage gap in New Brunswick. Rather than taking a short-term, political,
limited approach, which would not work, which would be the easy approach of passing a bill that
would not provide results . . . That is not what we want, because we care about the daughters and
granddaughters of New Brunswickers. We care about the women of this province. We want to make
sure that the women of this province are paid the wages that they deserve to be paid. That is why
we need more than just legislation. We need a comprehensive strategy, which we have put in place.
I will not take a backseat to anybody in the opposition on this issue. I will not let their empty
rhetoric take hold, because the fact is that I am personally committed to making sure that we reduce
the wage gap in this province. As long as I am Premier, we will work to reduce and eliminate the
wage gap in New Brunswick.
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Mr. S. Graham: I think it is important to note that a nerve has been struck with the Premier this
afternoon. It is important to see that passion, indeed, for fighting to eliminate the wage gap in New
Brunswick. Unfortunately, equal pay for work of equal value is still not being achieved, and we
know that by the gap that exists. My question did not pertain to legislation. The question was about
how we are going to eliminate the gap. I have asked for some clear, specific time lines for that to
be achieved. You are the Premier, and you are in charge of Parts II, III, and IV of the civil service.
May I remind you that it was a former Liberal government that implemented pay equity in Part I?
My question to you, very clearly, is this: If you are committed to this, can you stand up today and
provide the Legislative Assembly with an update on the indicators and the timetable for the
achievement of pay equity in the school system, the health care system, and Part IV of the civil
service, which includes the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission? If we are
going to see it occur in the private sector, we have to take the leadership role in the public sector.
It is now time for you to stand and tell us what you are going to do in these key areas of the public
service.
Hon. Mr. Lord: I welcome the question because, in fact, we have already taken the leadership role,
and we will continue to take the leadership role. We have already, through negotiation with groups
in Part III, worked to reduce the wage gap. In fact, I remember that one year we were negotiating
with one union, and it did not want to agree to eliminate the wage gap. That is why we did not agree
to the deal, because one of the goals that we wanted to accomplish was to eliminate the wage gap
in that union. We did not accept the deal until the wage gap was eliminated in that union. That is the
type of leadership we have shown as the government.
Equalization Payments
Mr. S. Graham: My next question to the Premier also concerns an issue we discussed earlier this
week pertaining to equalization. I was happy to hear the Premier’s commitment, which we share on
this side of the Chamber. It must be a 10-province formula, and 100% of the resource revenues must
be included in the formula. I have to say that I was very concerned today to read the statements in
the national press by the Premier of Alberta, Ralph Klein: a headline stating that Alberta threatens
to pull out of the equalization deal with the other provinces; a headline stating that Klein issues
warning on the sharing of the wealth, and that he threatens to pull the province out of revenuesharing
deal with Ottawa. Premier Klein stated: “We will participate if the feds and the provinces
conclude that there ought to be a 10-province standard, but we won’t participate if resource revenues
are included.”
I have stated publicly this week that I am very concerned about the statements made by Premier
Dalton McGinty of Ontario. I think the Premier would share the same concerns with respect to
Premier Klein. I will give him the opportunity to state officially, on the record, how we can work
cooperatively to portray the fact that New Brunswick is indeed striving toward self-sufficiency. We
have to erase the comments in the Western Provinces that we are simply looking for a handout.
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019 14:10
Pay Equity
Hon. Mr. Lord: I simply want to say, with regard to pay equity, that it is in the five-year plan to
bring the wage gap, if any exists, to zero in Parts I, II, III, and IV of the government.
Equalization Payments
I really welcome the question from the Leader of the Opposition today, because I read the comments
from the Premier of Alberta. I want to state for the record that sometimes, there are some
misconceptions about equalization. Not one cent of equalization comes from the revenues collected
by the government of Alberta. The money that goes to equalization is paid by Canadians, regardless
of where they live. In fact, people who live in New Brunswick, people who live in P.E.I., people
who live in Newfoundland, just like people in Ontario or in Alberta, also contribute directly to
equalization. Therefore, this concept, this idea that a province can pull out of equalization, is really
a concept that does not make any sense, because it is a federal program, paid for by federal dollars,
and it is not a program like any other program. It is a program that is enshrined in the Constitution
of Canada, and I am pleased that the Leader of the Opposition supports us in the effort to make sure
that we have a 10-province standard for comprehensive revenue coverage.
There is one thing I want to add. One thing we all share in this room is that eventually, down the
road, we hope that we will not need equalization. I hope that one day, New Brunswick will be
considered a contributor to equalization, as it was at the start of Confederation. In the meantime, we
want to make sure that our citizens get services that are comparable to those received by other
citizens of Canada.
Mr. S. Graham: The Premier is correct. We are concerned today with the misconception that
Premier Klein is trying to portray across the country. The fact is, equalization is funded by federal
tax revenues. Provinces do not cut cheques from their own treasuries for this important formula.
This year, the equalization account stands at $10.9 billion. New Brunswick, in the fiscal period
2005-06, would have received $1.348 billion, so it is a very important component of our provincial
budget. However, as the Premier stated, we both share the same dream that someday, in the drive
toward self-sufficiency, New Brunswick can be a contributor to the equalization formula.
The next question I would like to bring to the Premier’s attention is this: With the misconception
from Premier Klein and the concerns that Premier McGuinty is raising, I think it is very important
that we work in a cooperative framework, together, on this issue. I am willing, as I said earlier, to
meet with Premier McGuinty, and if the Premier would like to travel to Ontario, he and I could meet
together on this very important issue.
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I would like to bring to the Premier’s attention that next week, there is a Western Premiers
conference in Gimli, Manitoba, from May 29 to 31. I feel that this would be a perfect opportunity
for the Premier and me to travel to Manitoba and to make a strong statement of the position of New
Brunswick and of Atlantic Canada on equalization, and also on where we can work cooperatively
together. In a spirit of nonpartisanship, of putting down the swords and working together, it would
be a strong commitment from this province.
My question to the Premier is whether he would be interested, next week, in making an appearance
at the Western Premiers Conference. We would be willing to participate in that, just to set out our
clear position versus Premier Ralph Klein’s.
Hon. Mr. Lord: On this issue, I truly believe the Leader of the Opposition in his statements on
being cooperative. I take him at his word, and I believe it would be important for New Brunswick
to be at the meeting next week, in Manitoba. I intend to go, and if the Leader of the Opposition
wants to come with me, I will be happy to take him along with me to that meeting.
Also, I want to add that when we talk about including natural resource revenues in equalization, it
has to be stated very clearly that this would not in any way reduce the revenues that are collected
by Alberta for itself, and that is an important distinction. Some people think that when we talk about
including natural resource revenues in equalization, it means that here is some money which Alberta
is collecting now and which it would no longer get. That is totally incorrect. Alberta would collect
the revenues that it wants to collect from its natural resources, but it would be part of the calculation
of the fiscal capacity of that province. That is certainly a message that I will continue to convey here
in New Brunswick, next week in Gimli, Manitoba, and the week after that in Alberta. Anywhere in
Canada, this is a message that has to be conveyed to all Canadians, to make sure that Canadians
understand.
I certainly welcome the cooperation that is offered by the Leader of the Opposition on this file.
020 14:15
Mr. S. Graham: It is very apparent this afternoon that the Premier and I are both singing from the
same hymnbook. That is very important, and I appreciate the fact that we will be working
cooperatively to represent the interests of all New Brunswickers at this important meeting next week
with the Western-based Premiers. However, my next question to the Premier, if he could provide
some clarity on it, pertains to reports in the Canadian Press about the fact that Prime Minister
Stephen Harper sent a letter to the provinces during last winter’s federal election campaign, which
promised an equalization formula based on an average of 10 provinces. However, it excluded the
resource revenues. My question to the Premier is: Did he, indeed, receive such a letter from Stephen
Harper, who was Leader of the Opposition at that time?
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Hon. Mr. Lord: In fact, the Premiers did receive a letter from the candidate at the time, who is now
the Prime Minister of Canada. The Council of the Federation had written at the time to the leader
of each federal party on the issue of fiscal imbalance. We received the response. I am sure that I
could get a copy for the Leader of the Opposition.
The fact remains that the position taken at the time by Mr. Harper, who is Prime Minister today,
does not alter the position taken by the government of New Brunswick. It certainly does not alter
the position that we are advancing as a province, which is that we need an equalization formula that
is based on sound principles, to respect the principles enounced in the Constitution of Canada. That
is why the Council of the Federation requested a report from a blue-ribbon panel. This expert panel
recommended 10-province standard, comprehensive revenue coverage, including the natural
resource revenues, which is in line with the position of the government of New Brunswick. Frankly,
what we see today is that the Leader of the Opposition and I are caught in the middle of a heated
agreement.
Mr. S. Graham: We will share the warmth. I appreciate the fact that Prime Minister Harper did
commit to an equalization formula based on the average of 10 provinces. However, he stated in that
letter that he was excluding the resource revenues. Those revenues must be included, because it is
not equalization if it does not equalize, to quote what the Premier said recently. My question to the
Premier is whether he would be willing to table that letter and the response.
We are in agreement with the position today. It seems that we are in disagreement now with Primer
Minister Stephen Harper, with Premier Ralph Klein, and with Premier Dalton McGuinty. I think it
is imperative that, by working cooperatively together, we send a sound message that New Brunswick
is not looking for a handout. We are looking for a formula that equalizes, because a number of our
nonrenewable resources were included in the formula for a very long period of time. Take, for
instance, Brunswick Mines, in Bathurst, and the revenue that industry provided to the equalization
formula. Unfortunately, that industry is closing, and New Brunswick is on the back end of a resource
industry, and we could be unfairly penalized. My question to the Premier then, is: Would he table
the letter that Stephen Harper sent him, along with the appropriate response, so that we could work
collectively on this?
Hon. Mr. Lord: I will certainly make sure that the letters that were sent by the Council of the
Federation and the responses received by the Council of the Federation, from Prime Minister Harper
and from the other leadership candidates as well, will be provided to the opposition. I have to say
that I do appreciate the fact that the Prime Minister of Canada has stated that he wants to negotiate
with the provinces. The Minister of Finance stated in his budget that there will be a meeting, over
the next year, with the Premiers on this issue. I certainly intend to take a leadership role in the
negotiations that will lead to a better equalization formula for all of Canada, not just for New
Brunswick. To really equalize, we need to include all the revenues, because the fiscal capacity that
is generated from nonrenewable resources is the fiscal capacity that can help pay for higher wages
for nurses and higher wages for doctors. It could help those provinces come here and recruit our
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nurses, our doctors, and our teachers, and it does have an impact in the real world. That is why it
needs to be included in a real equalization formula.
021 14:20
Assurance automobile
M. Landry : D’abord, j’aimerais féliciter le premier ministre et notre chef pour leur collaboration
sur un enjeu aussi important que le déséquilibre fiscal. Mes questions sont pour le ministre de la
Justice. Le 18 mai dernier, un journaliste du réseau anglais de Radio-Canada a révélé une nouvelle
spectaculaire et inquiétante. Au Nouveau-Brunswick, en 2004, les compagnies d’assurance ont fait
presque 500 $ — 500 $ — de profits pour chaque véhicule assuré dans la province. Si on regarde
la situation en Alberta, où il y a aussi un système d’assurance privé, le Alberta Insurance Rate Board
a permis aux compagnies d’assurance de faire moins de 40 $ de profits par véhicule pour l’année
2004. C’est un preuve de plus que, contrairement à ce qui se passe en Alberta, les réformes mises
en place par le gouvernement Lord ont laissé les consommateurs à la merci des compagnies
d’assurance. Voici ma première question au ministre : Peut-il nous dire ce qu’il compte faire pour
défendre les consommateurs du Nouveau-Brunswick en matière d’assurance pour s’assurer que les
profits faramineux des compagnies d’assurance reviennent dans les poches des consommateurs?
Hon. Mr. Fitch: Last night, the New Brunswick Insurance Board was here in Fredericton. It held
an open house, where people could go in and ask questions such as the one that was just posed. The
New Brunswick Insurance Board is one of the reforms this government has put in place to deal with
situations like the one raised by the Automobile Insurance Critic from the opposite side. When I got
the report about the meeting last night, my understanding was that, including the critic from the
opposition, along with the staff from our department, there were roughly a dozen people who went
in and posed questions to the Insurance Advocate. They also posed questions to people from the
New Brunswick Insurance Board. I was wondering if the critic took the time to ask them that
question, and what response he received.
M. Landry : C’est vrai que j’étais à l’assemblée hier soir, le ministre aurait dû y être aussi. C’est
à lui d’aller chercher les réponses aux questions que j’ai posées et non à nous. Mardi dernier, lorsque
j’ai posé les questions au ministre, il a pris le temps de m’expliquer un concept qui, selon lui, était
très important en termes d’assurance. Il m’a dit :
If there is something that a person can afford to repair or replace, then they make that choice . . .
Insurance is there to cover the things that you cannot afford to pay for yourself.
C’est peut-être une situation qui fait son affaire. Il aime peut-être payer les dommages à son véhicule
de sa propre poche, il en a peut-être les moyens, mais ce n’est pas le cas pour tout le monde au
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Nouveau-Brunswick. Les travailleurs à faible revenu n’ont pas toujours les moyens de payer de leur
propre poche les réclamations mineures. Qu’est-ce que le ministre propose de faire pour venir en
aide à ces travailleurs et pour s’assurer qu’ils pourront faire les réclamations qu’ils sont en droit de
faire sans que leurs primes d’assurance automobile augmente?
Hon. Mr. Fitch: Let us be clear about what the critic is asking here. He is suggesting something . . .
He wants to take away people’s ability to choose. He wants to have one program. Public insurance
is not what people want. They want a government-run program, which will, on average, cost
taxpayers more than $200. That is all taxpayers. The programs we put in place are the ones that are
working. The premiums are going down, as stated by the New Brunswick Insurance Board at last
night’s session. The premiums are expected to be about $851 in 2006. This is in contrast to the
research done by the opposition, where the average premium was touted as being $1 800. Two days
later, the opposition had to sneak out on a Friday at 4:30 p.m. to say: Oh, sorry. We made a mistake.
It is not $1 800. It is really deplorable that the opposition would stand up and talk about this when
it has not credibility at all. The reforms that we are putting in place, with the New Brunswick
Insurance Board and the Consumer Advocate for Insurance, have led to reduced policy premiums
in New Brunswick. They have provided stability in the prices of the premiums. They have
encouraged competition. They have depopulated the Facility Association, from 25 000 to roughly
8 500 . . .
Mr. Speaker: Time.
M. Landry : Ce n’est sûrement pas ce genre de réponse que les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick
veulent avoir du ministre. C’est honteux de voir l’insensibilité flagrante qu’a ce ministre envers les
personnes les plus démunies de la province. L’assurance existe pour couvrir les choses que les gens
ne peuvent pas payer eux-mêmes. Évidemment, la définition du ministre vient des compagnies
d’assurance et non du Petit Robert qui décrit l’assurance comme ceci : « Contrat par lequel un
assureur garantit à l'assuré, moyennant une prime ou une cotisation, le paiement d'une somme
convenue en cas de réalisation d'un risque déterminé. ». Le Petit Robert ne parle pas de petites ou
de grandes réclamations.
022 14:25
Pour le ministre, c’est le consommateur qui doit payer pour ces petites réclamations. Par
définition — ce n’est pas moi qui le dit mais le dictionnaire —, c’est l’assureur qui doit payer toutes
les réclamations qu’elles soient petites ou grandes. C’est une question de perspective, et on voit
clairement que le ministre ne parle pas pour les consommateurs mais pour les compagnies
d’assurance du Nouveau-Brunswick. Quand le ministre va-t-il s’ouvrir les yeux pour enfin défendre
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les consommateurs de la province, en forçant les compagnies d’assurance à respecter la définition
dans le dictionnaire et non celle des compagnies?
Hon. Mr. Fitch: It is obvious the member opposite does not understand insurance at all, because
it is a pool. When you talk about a pool, people put money into the pool and pay claims out of that
pool. The opposition critic is suggesting that if you have a $50 or $25 scratch on your car, the
insurance company should pay.
What we heard was that people want the premiums to go down. I have had discussions with people,
and the communication I received was that people want their premiums to go down. When they have
an accident, whether it is $50, $250, or $500, they should decide, in discussion with their agents, if
they should increase their deductible and pay it themselves and not put it through their insurance.
That is their choice in the product. That is their choice in how the insurance would work. If they
continue to put in $50 or $100 claims day after day or month after month, it is going to affect the
premiums.
You were the ones who wanted lower premiums. The population said it wanted lower premiums.
The way we do that is to bring in certain reforms: no-frills, first-chance, and various similar things
that have lowered the premium . . .
Mr. Speaker: I recognize the member for Saint John Harbour.
Nursing Homes—Personal Care Costs
Mr. Doherty: My question is directed to the honourable Minister of Family and Community
Services.
New Brunswick has the lowest personal allowance for residents in nursing homes in the country.
It amounts to less than $100 per month, despite the fact it has one of the highest per diem rates in
the country.
Three quarters of residents admitted to nursing homes have lost control of their bladder and bowel
functions. The government does not specifically fund adult diapers for this disorder. The
government provides a care-supply budget out of which diapers must be purchased. Adult diapers
account for 90% of this budget. Most nursing homes will provide diapers for basic needs to manage
this problem, but beyond the basic requirements, residents must personally fund adult diapers to
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maintain their dignity. The extra cost for dignity must come out of the meagre personal allowance
that New Brunswick nursing home residents must receive. My question to the minister is this:
Would your department consider covering the total cost of adult diapers for our loved ones in
nursing homes?
L’hon. M Dubé : Cela me fait plaisir de me lever à la Chambre pour parler du travail me il que ce
côté-ci de la Chambre a fait dans nos foyers de soins. Depuis que nous sommes au pouvoir, je peux
vous dire que nous sommes engagées à aider les personnes âgées. Cela a été démontré dans le
budget que mon collègue le ministre des Finances a présenté cette année. À différents niveaux, on
augmente le budget des foyers de soins et le personnel. De plus, on augmente la formation pour les
employés et on va nécessairement payer le coût des soins offerts dans les foyers de soins. On protège
les maisons des personnes âgées, et on a aussi augmenté le montant pour les besoins spécifiques des
personnes dans les foyers de soins.
Alors, je pense que ce gouvernement est engagé, et que les parlementaires poursuivent leur travail
avec tous nos partenaires. On peut dire merci à la bonne gestion de notre premier ministre et du
ministre des Finances qui se sont assurés justement que nous sommes capables de mettre des
mesures en place pour aider ces gens que nous respectons énormément. Ce sont les personnes âgées
qui ont construit cette province, et nous leur en sommes reconnaissants aujourd’hui.
Mr. Doherty: Adult diapers are medical supplies. One nursing home administrator informed me that
if they were covered, she could hire three additional full-time equivalents, which would free up staff
time to accompany residents to the washroom. We are talking about dignity for the most vulnerable
in society.
023 14:30
The question that I am asking the minister is: Will she commit to funding the medical supplies that
seniors and nursing homes require and free up nursing home staff time?
L’hon. Mme Dubé : Cela me fait plaisir encore aujourd’hui de me lever à la Chambre avec fierté
pour démontrer à la population du Nouveau-Brunswick toutes les choses que le gouvernement fait
pour nos personnes aînées. Nous n’avons certainement pas terminé. Vous aurez l’occasion, lors des
mes prévisions budgétaires, de poser toutes vos questions. Dans notre budget de cette année, on dit
que le maximum que des gens vont payer dans des foyers de soins, c’est un total de 79 $, parce que
les soins offerts à ces gens seront couverts par la province du Nouveau-Brunswick. on va prendre
soin de ceux qui sont incapables de payer les frais de base. Je pense qu’on n’a absolument aucune
ORAL QUESTIONS 32 QUESTIONS ORALES
May 25, 2006 Not finalized / Non finalisé le 25 mai 2006
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leçon à prendre du côté de l’opposition. Nous investissons davantage dans nos foyers de soins, nous
investissons davantage dans des services et des programmes que nous offrons à nos personnes
aînées. Encore là, nous n’avons pas terminé.