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020 11:20
Protection des renseignements personnels
M. C. Landry : Ma question est pour le ministre de la Santé. Cela fait déjà plus de deux mois que
des renseignements médicaux confidentiels de 485 personnes du Nouveau-Brunswick ont été perdus.
Votre temps de réaction, Monsieur le ministre, a été très long. Après avoir heureusement suivi
l’exemple de la Colombie-Britannique, une firme de surveillance de crédit va maintenant offrir des
services aux gens qui sont aux prises avec ce défi. Pendant combien de temps ces 485 personnes du
Nouveau-Brunswick pourront-elles recevoir cette protection de crédit?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: In the statement yesterday, I think some of the wording may have been missed
by some at the time. The statement was very clear yesterday that the credit monitoring service would
be in place for at least a year, and that will be the case. Of course, releases will have to be signed
to ensure that we have consent. There will be a credit monitoring service. It has already been
selected and costed, and it is prepared to go ahead. New Brunswickers should know that, to this
point in time, there is no evidence that these cassettes have fallen into inappropriate hands or that
there has been any misuse of them. We know that New Brunswickers whose names are on those
cassettes are not responsible in any way for anything untoward which might have occurred or which
might yet occur. They should also know, of course, that this technology is obsolete. It would be
exceedingly difficult to access it, yet we treat the risk as a major risk.
M. C. Landry : Lorsque le ministre dit « pour au moins un an », je pense que ce n’est pas suffisant,
alors que la GRC elle-même nous informe que cette information pourrait être utilisée dans les
années futures. Par conséquent, ma question pour le ministre de la Santé est la suivante : est-il prêt
à garantir que cette firme de sécurité va pouvoir aider ces 485 Néo-Brunswickois et Néo-
Brunswickoises pour au moins les cinq prochaines années?
020 11:20
Hon. Mr. Murphy: As I have indicated, this will be monitored. It will be in place for at least a year.
The circumstances will be measured week to week, and month to month. This is a very serious issue.
We are going forward, as we know, to the e-health century. I think that New Brunswickers would
be interested to know that the most secure site we have is the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia
connection. It is server to server, with no paper, and is very secure. We are discussing with the
governments throughout Canada as to whether they now have enough technology to meet the
technology that we have for going server to server. The e-health initiative will be built around the
privacy laws. It will ensure a variety of other things as well, on which I am prepared to speak.
Mr. Urquhart: Why did the minister not take immediate and proper action to protect the people of
New Brunswick? As a former criminal investigator myself, I can assure you that most evidence is
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secured, and most crime is solved, within the first 24 to 48 hours of indication of a crime. This has
to be looked upon as a crime. People say that it is not a crime. It has to be considered a crime until
all other evidence has been removed, and all other action taken, to eliminate the possibility of a
crime.
The minister has failed the people in two ways: One, by letting the incident go over a month without
taking immediate action, and not being in control of his department. Second, by not immediately
bringing everything to a grinding halt the minute he found out, and calling in the city police, or the
RCMP forensic department, to look at this as a crime, to either make sure that the information is
there, or secure the evidence.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: As soon as the critical masses acquired this, through the senior management,
and they became aware, and made me aware, these tapes had been missing for two months. Late in
the day, we became aware that, in fact, operations had been made aware in late October. Directions
were given, just prior to that last notice, to prepare the file and contact the police departments. As
I have indicated, the RCMP in Richmond, British Columbia were advised and were on the file on
Tuesday morning, several hours after the information was put together and identified.
The New Brunswick police are advised that there is an ongoing file. We have treated this with the
utmost seriousness. It is the number one priority to try to find those tapes. We have treated it as if
it has been accessed. We have minimal evidence to that effect at the present time, but we will
continue to be vigilant and protect the interest of New Brunswickers.
Mr. Urquhart: What is being said in this House today contradicts everything that has been going
on. On October 25, Sameday Courier notified Aliant, who is a customer of the department, that it
had not received the package in British Columbia. Therefore, there is no crime, and there is no
indication of anything going on in British Columbia. They notified the Department of Health on
October 25. At that time, they knew that vital statistics of the people of New Brunswick were
missing. At that moment, the city police and the RCMP should have been notified here in the
province, because the evidence went missing from here in the province. Why would you go to
British Columbia in the first place? You lost the information here in the province. It left from New
Brunswick. The police here are the people who should have done it.
The minister does not have the confidence of the department. They took over a month to tell him.
He no longer has the confidence of the people, because he has let them down on it. Is the Premier
going to do the proper thing and remove this minister from the department, to bring confidence back
to the Department of Health, and allow the people to know that the Premier is in charge of this
government, by removing this minister?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The public has been made aware of all circumstances. What I know of all these
circumstances, the public knows. The document, the cassettes, were traced to Richmond, British
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Columbia. That is where they went missing. The police were immediately advised, once we had the
information. Of course, there was a followup with New Brunswick police.
021 11:25
The e-health initiative is something that will allow us, in consultation with the stakeholders’ group,
the drafting of legislation, and the building of the e-health initiative around that, to have a more
secure system with regard to information. As I announced, the most secure that exist presently are
Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. That is e-health, almost in its infancy. E-health, as we know, in
addition to providing greater security, will also provide New Brunswickers with the ability to have
lower wait times for surgery, to have quicker access to primary care, and to have better health care.
We will do this hand in hand with the security laws and privacy laws, and we will protect people’s
information and provide them with better health care.
Mr. Urquhart: Just the minister’s comments alone make it perfectly clear that, for vital statistics,
e-health is the most important thing that can possibly be done to protect the people of the province.
It is their information. Once that information went missing, it is not as though it was something that
he did not understand. He knows that vital statistics are the most important thing, and we are
spending millions on it. At the same time, it took him over a month to get his department . . . Either
he had no control over his department, or he was not conscious of the seriousness of what was going
on. One way or another, he did not take the proper action. He did not protect the people of the
province. His own department cannot now have confidence in this minister. The Premier has to
remove this minister from the position.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: This very regrettable incident is a very serious matter, and the department is
dealing with it. However, we have many serious health matters in New Brunswick on which we are
going forward. We have announced that we are going to ban power boards on tobacco so that our
young people are not influenced by those. Nova Scotia passed legislation yesterday to ban smoking
in cars in which there are children. That is a very, very serious matter as well, and that is something
that we are asking New Brunswickers and the opposition about. Let’s start talking about whether
that is something we should do to protect our citizens and our children, in addition to protecting their
health information, which is equally as serious.
Mr. Carr: Again, the minister is trying to divert from the issue, but the opposition and the people
of New Brunswick will not let the Minister of Health do that. After one year in office, this minister
and this government have touted e-health as the government’s number one priority and the way of
the future. A study on privacy was even completed. Unfortunately, it has been ignored by this
government. The minister has failed in his responsibilities to provide confidence in his department
and with the people of New Brunswick. He failed to put proper security policies in place over this
one year. He failed in his reaction and to learn of the mistakes made under his watch. Again, he has
failed to create confidence that is much needed, especially in the Department of Health. He has
added confusion and continues to do so. Will the Premier finally, today, stand up and ask for this
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minister to be removed from the Department of Health so that the people of New Brunswick will
gain confidence again in the process of medical health records?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The province of New Brunswick, according to Canada Health Infoway, which
supplies a large portion of the money on which the e-health initiative is based, has indicated that we
are last in the country. We have an initiative that will take us from last to first by the early part of
2009. However, we have stated many times that if there is no privacy, there is no e-health, so these
are being built together.
We take very seriously that the e-health initiative has to go forward, and, of course, it has to be
private. If we do not do that, we still open ourselves, without the e-health initiative there, to
continued mistakes from time to time with regard to medical care because of the lack of records
available. We allow more wait time to grow to see specialists or to have surgery. We have eight silos
out there, and we are not able to treat New Brunswickers with one health care system. E-health will
allow us to have all New Brunswickers access all infrastructure and all personnel in this province,
but we understand fully that the e-health initiative cannot go forward unless it goes forward hand
in hand with privacy and is constructed around it.
022 11:30
Mr. Carr: It is not going forward. It is what has occurred under this minister’s watch that is the
problem. How can the people of New Brunswick have confidence, going forward, when this minister
has failed in his responsibilities and duties under his watch? Why is the Premier sitting silent? Why
is he interested in protecting his friends and not interested in protecting the people of New
Brunswick?
On October 25, a second copy was released to the people of British Columbia. Rather than the
department calling the RCMP in New Brunswick, it released a second copy. On November 29, over
a month later, the director found out about this incident. On December 6, the senior levels of his
department met with the minister and first discussed this. Why did it take two months? Even at this
meeting on December 6, the department did not and would not inform the minister that it had been
two months since the tapes had been missing. There is a culture of distrust in this department, which
this minister has created. The communication problems go from the middle levels all the way to the
senior levels. The minister has lost the confidence of this House and has lost the confidence of the
people of New Brunswick. Once again, will the Premier ask this minister to step aside so that the
people can have more confidence in this government?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The member opposite has referenced a failure of responsibility. I do not
consider that the government has failed in its responsibility when it has brought oncology to
northern New Brunswick so that people do not have to travel to the south. It brought dialysis to
northern New Brunswick so that they do not have to travel to the south. We will have a uniform
ambulance system that will be up and running very shortly—within hours, actually. We have a
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trauma system about to begin. We have the Acadian Peninsula resolution about to be announced.
We have a specialty program in Saint John. We have a medical education program in Saint John.
We looked after those voiceless souls in Campbellton, who languished in a 60-year-old hospital.
That is responsibility.
Mr. Carr: Without privacy, without security, and without trust, the people of New Brunswick have
nothing. Again, without privacy, without security, and without trust, the people of New Brunswick
have nothing. This minister and this Premier are giving nothing and giving no confidence to the
people of New Brunswick. The Telegraph-Journal today states: “A serious exposure has occurred,
and the government is struggling to restore faith in its practices”. The Health Services Act requires
secrecy with respect to confidential information, and the communication of this information is an
offense under this Act. On the floor of this House, the minister has referred to the lady in the cubicle
on the second floor. Will the minister allow this person to take the fall for the mistakes made under
his watch? Will he do the honourable thing and protect this person, protect his department, and
protect the integrity of the health system that is so important to the people of New Brunswick? Will
the Premier step in to do all this and ask this minister to remove himself from his responsibilities?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: I will tell you whom this government has been listening to. It has been listening
to the people of New Brunswick. When those people in Campbellton, those poor patients, languished
in that hospital, year after year, without windows, without proper wards in this day and age, this
government acted. We did not have the money. We went to a PPP, because the Premier and I went
through that hospital a few months ago. When we walked out, we both said: Something must be
done as soon as we possibly can. Those poor souls within are not going to sweep any government
here today or a past one to power, because they have few people representing them. This
government represents those people who cannot look after themselves. We will do it now, and we
will do it in the future.
Mr. Volpé: The minister still does not seem to understand the seriousness of the issue. He said,
earlier today: As soon as we knew, we sent for the RCMP. That is not true. It happened in early
October, and the RCMP was called this week. That is over two months. The issue today is: How
long was it after he knew? How serious was the issue? He still does not understand today. This
week, he said: It is not lost. It is probably just somewhere on a shelf. It is not stolen.
023 11:35
Well, if you know, who told you? You do not, so it should have been treated right away as a criminal
offense, as it was in British Columbia. They called the RCMP right away, and they said: Call those
people. The time that it took before people were called in New Brunswick . . . It is because we did
our job on this side of the House. That is why, once again, we are asking the Premier to do the right
thing today and move that minister somewhere else. He has not done his job, and he has not
delivered what New Brunswickers are looking for.
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Hon. Mr. Murphy: This government and this minister have acted with the proper responsibility
expected under the circumstances, and we will continue to do that. Part of our responsibility is to
ensure the protection of health information, and we will continue to do that to our utmost ability.
The e-health initiative is imperative to ensure people’s security with regard to their personal health
information. We live, unfortunately, in a paper world, and the Department of Health and other
government departments—and across this country—have been operating on a system that is archaic.
I recognized that from day one, and I have spoken of our transfer to e-health from last to first. We
will do that, and we will build it around privacy laws. We have a stakeholders group that is being
formed, which we have spoken of before. We had a task force out there. All of these matters indicate
to New Brunswickers the importance of their personal health information. That will be respected.
That has been respected. We will continue to protect the interests of New Brunswickers. As soon
as we find out that there is anything wrong on any of these matters, we act.
Taxe de vente harmonisée
M. Olscamp : Le premier ministre et ses ministres sont distancés de la réalité. On voit un
gouvernement libéral qui laisse les riches devenir plus riches, tout en négligeant les pauvres de notre
province, avec des centaines de millions de surplus que le gouvernement a dans ses coffres
aujourd’hui. Ma question est pour le premier ministre, et je la demande tranquillement pas vite.
Monsieur le premier ministre, êtes-vous prêt à donner le 8 % de rabais sur la TVH aux gens du
Nouveau-Brunswick, tel que vous l’aviez promis?
L’hon. V. Boudreau : Merci pour la question. Vous savez, hier, l’opposition a dit qu’on a utilisé
toutes sortes de tactiques pour essayer d’éviter la question. Aujourd’hui, lorsque les parlementaires
du côté de l’opposition avaient le temps de discuter d’une question si importante, ils ne l’ont pas
fait. Ils se sont tout simplement plaints encore une fois.
Pour ce qui est de la question du remboursement de la TVH, nous avons pris cette décision-là
comme gouvernement. Après avoir réfléchi davantage à cette politique, nous avons conclu que ce
n’était pas la meilleure décision à prendre pour les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick. On a pensé qu’il
était mieux de travailler avec eux en vue de conserver l’énergie. C’est pour cette raison que mon
collègue, le ministre de l’Énergie, a investi beaucoup de temps et beaucoup d’argent avec Efficacité
Nouveau-Brunswick pour s’assurer que les gens les plus démunis et les gens qui sont prêts à faire
des rénovations nécessaires à leur maison puissent le faire afin que leur facture d’électricité diminue.
Nous avons fait ce choix au lieu de subventionner une facture d’électricité qui est déjà trop élevée.
M. Olscamp : Le ministre suggère que les personnes les plus démunies devraient augmenter
l’efficacité de leur maison. Ce sont les mêmes pauvres qui n’ont pas les moyens de dépenser des
milliers de dollars pour rénover leurs maisons.
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Comme député de nos circonscriptions, nous recevons chaque jour des personnes qui sont démunies,
qui reçoivent l’aide sociale et des personnes âgées. Il y a des personnes qui sont très inquiètes de la
politique de ce gouvernement. Il y a des personnes qui sont presque au désespoir. Ici, je veux répéter
ma question, en suggérant que certaines personnes doivent choisir ce qui est le plus important pour
elles, soit mettre de la nourriture sur leur table ou payer leurs médicaments. Va-t-on payer pour le
mazout ou leur facture d’électricité pour chauffer leur maison?
Ma question est la suivante : Étant donné l’anxiété de ces citoyens, le présent gouvernement libéral
est-il prêt à remettre le rabais de 8 % de la TVH aux personnes âgées, aux gens ayant des besoins
spéciaux et aux gens ayant de faibles revenus? Cette fois, je demande cette question au premier
ministre.
L’hon. V. Boudreau : Étant donné que le député d’en face pose la même question, on va lui donner
la même réponse. La décision a été prise par le présent gouvernement, étant donné que ce n’était pas
la meilleure politique à suivre.
024 11:40
Pourquoi donner de l’argent à certaines personnes qui ont peut-être les moyens et qui n’ont pas
besoin de cette aide financière? Nous avons décidé de concentrer nos efforts dans la conservation
d’énergie. Les personnes à faible revenu peuvent faire une demande au ministère de ma collègue,
la ministre Schryer, et recevoir du financement allant jusqu’à une valeur de 4 500 $ pour des
rénovations. Mon collègue, le ministre de l’Énergie, Jack Keir, travaille avec Elizabeth Weir et sa
boutique à Saint John pour développer toutes sortes de programmes pour la rénovation afin de
rendre les bâtiments et les édifices plus efficients au niveau de la conservation d’énergie. D’après
tous les commentaires et toutes les évaluations qui ont été faites, nous avons les meilleurs
programmes au Canada. Pour nous, c’est ce qui est important. Nous voulons investir dans la
conservation d’énergie. Nous préférons aider les gens à diminuer leur consommation plutôt que
subventionner des factures déjà trop élevées.
Mr. Olscamp: I want to remind the minister that the plan had already been in place to help people
renovate their homes. Besides putting that in place, we had also promised a rebate on the HST. I just
want to make that clear. The minister’s response today is further evidence that the government is
distanced from the people of this province. Seniors, people on social assistance, and people with
special needs—I am repeating it in English because I still want the Premier to answer the
question—will be forced to choose between putting food on the table, buying medication, or paying
inflated heating costs this winter. As we know, the winter has been rugged so far. By all reports, it
is going to be a long, hard winter.
My question to the Premier is this: With the large surplus that is in the coffers of the government
today, is the Premier prepared to put a program in place now to help the most vulnerable people with
their heating bills in New Brunswick?
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Hon. V. Boudreau: The member opposite keeps asking the same question in different languages.
I can switch back and forth between English and French quite comfortably, as well. We have put
our energy—pardon the pun—into efficiency. That is where we want to see our dollars go. We have
done more in the past 14 months for low-income New Brunswickers than the former government
did in seven years. We have put in place the Home Heating Assistance Plan. We have doubled the
Low-Income Seniors’ Benefit. We have raised the minimum wage by over a dollar. We have been
doing everything we can, and we will continue to do more, but we have to work at efficiency. We
have leading programs in the country in terms of energy efficiency, and we have seen record uptakes
of these programs. We have programs in Family and Community Services to help those on low
incomes to be able to get access to the types of renovations they need to make to their properties.
Taxation
Mr. Betts: When the Liberal government did not keep its word and give back the HST rebate, it cost
the average family $200. What the government did do was to raise the income tax, which cost
families anywhere from $120 to $300. It raised NB Power rates by upwards of $150 to $300. It sat
by while property taxes zoomed higher. Some of the members over there have to pay even more than
I do, and I am concerned about them. It is about $300. The average family is spending about $1 200
more.
A quote from the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies indicates that:
One of the groups that get hurt the most by spiraling property taxes is pensioners . . . Assessments
might be going up, but you don’t see property tax rates going down.
Has the Minister of State for Seniors spoken with the Premier and his Liberal caucus, urging them
to keep their word and give back the HST on home heating fuel?
Hon. V. Boudreau: They like to quote reports. I would like to quote a report from the Fraser
Institute, an institute that the former government members believed in an awful lot when they were
in government. The Fraser Institute calculates what it calls Tax Freedom Day, to provide a
comprehensive indicator of the total amount of taxes paid by the average Canadian family to all
three levels of government, federal, provincial, and local. It looks at things like income tax, property
tax, sales tax, profit tax, health, social security, and employment taxes, import duties, license fees,
taxes on the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, natural resource fees, fuel tax, hospital tax, and
a host of other levies.
025 11:45
Guess what? Tax Freedom Day varies from province to province, as we all know. I do not think it
is any surprise that Alberta is in first place. That is where people pay less tax across the country.
Guess what jurisdiction comes second in the country? The province of New Brunswick.
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Mr. Betts: Governing is about making proper choices, and while seniors are choosing between heat,
medicine, and food, this government has chosen casinos and raising stakes for racehorses. It has
chosen to give $60 million to the caisses populaires run by a former Liberal premier, Camille
Thériault. When we were in government, we gave a $200 oil rebate for those under $25 000. Look
at the headlines: Tax bills soar, Liberals hike income tax, Taxes keep climbing, No help coming,
Hands off the GST.
I urge the Liberal government to keep true to its word: Give a break on taxes. In a reply to the
speech from the throne by Shawn Graham, on page 2, it said that he wanted a commitment, by
January 15, from government to announce a long-term plan to help working New Brunswick
families deal with the rising cost of electricity and home heating.
What have they done? They have raised taxes and have not kept their word on the HST. These
people are suffering. We want action.
Hon. V. Boudreau: The facts will prove everything. The Leader of the Opposition tried to say: No,
no. That is not true. That was when we were in government.
This release came out on June 19, 2007, three months after our budget and well into our mandate.
Mr. Speaker: As I said yesterday—I am going to have to repeat it again today—you ask the
questions and you answer. Let’s listen to the question so that we can hear the answer.
Hon. V. Boudreau: All right We get to question the opposition. I like that. We get to question.
Mr. Speaker: There is so much noise, even I am mixed up. You ask the questions, and they answer.
Let’s listen to what is being said. Thank you.
Hon. V. Boudreau: The opposition members are so inconsistent in their positions that I would not
even dare to try to ask them any questions, because they are all over the map.
This is the Fraser Institute. This is a very respectable organization in Canada. This release came out
on June 19, 2007, and it states very clearly: “Tax Freedom Day varies from province to province,
depending on the taxation levels of each provincial government. Alberta enjoys the earliest Tax
Freedom Day on June 1, followed by New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island (June 14).” That
takes into account all the various taxes that the opposition members like to crow about.
The fact of the matter is, we have done more for low-income people in New Brunswick in 14 months
than that government did in its entire 7-year mandate. We have doubled low-income seniors’
benefits. We have provided assistance for all income earners, and we have raised the minimum
wage.
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Mr. Volpé: I am glad that the minister is standing up today and saying that he has a June 2007
report on taxation, because your tax on personal tax in New Brunswick applied on July 1, 2007. You
are not part of it. The numbers he is using today are based on 2006. We were there in 2006. I am just
waiting for them to come back because I can also use some reports from small businesses saying that
the government is going in the wrong direction. They said it is the worst attack because this is the
only jurisdiction in the country that increased taxes last year.
026 11:50
The numbers that the minister is using today are based on 2006, not on 2007. That was under our
government. Now, we are waiting to see the impact that their increase, in 2007, will have on the
Fraser Institute. Your personal income tax increase applied on July 1, after the report, and the report
is based on numbers from 2006. Is it right or wrong?
Hon. S. Graham: I have been listening to the debate unfolding in this Chamber this morning. What
is clear is the lack of discipline and focus on the side of the opposition. To begin with, this morning,
they had the audacity to waste five members’ statements, complaining that they did not have enough
time to debate yesterday, meaning that they have nothing to debate today.
What is clear today is that our government is committed to helping the most vulnerable in our
society. For seven years, the residents of the hospital in Campbellton, in the mental health facility,
were left without hope, because their government failed to bring forward a new facility that would
provide them with the services that they required.
Today, we have firemen in this Chamber. For seven years, the former government said that they
would not be eligible for workers’ compensation benefits, if they fell ill, due to cancer-related
illnesses. Our government is committed to standing up for people. Our government is committed
to putting forward the programs that are going to bring forward social justice in New Brunswick.
Clearly, while they are lacking discipline on that side, we are providing action on this side.
Mr. Speaker: The time for question period is now over.
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