Question Periode at the New Brunswick Legislature!!!!! BS STYLE!!!!!

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ORAL QUESTIONS 8 QUESTIONS ORALES
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024 14:40
Protection des renseignements personnels
M. Volpé : Ma question est pour le ministre de la Santé. Alors que le premier ministre de la
Colombie-Britannique a reconnu l’importance et le sérieux de la perte d’information médicale et
cherche les victimes pour les aider, le ministre de la Santé du Nouveau-Brunswick cherche les
coupables et les victimes sont laissées à elles-mêmes. Étant donné l’importance de l’enjeu, le
ministre de la Santé de la Colombie-Britannique a agi immédiatement comme s’il s’agissait d’un
vol d’identité en contactant les victimes immédiatement.
Ma question pour le ministre est celle-ci : Pourquoi a-t-il été aussi négligent et n’a-t-il pas agi
immédiatement pour aider les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick, comme l’a fait son collègue de la
Colombie-Britannique pour les gens de sa province?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: As soon as we were made aware, this past Monday, that these records had been
absent for two months, directives were given. The information was put together throughout

the
afternoon of this past Monday. On Tuesday morning, the administrative support branch of my
department contacted the RCMP in Richmond, British Columbia, advising them of the
circumstances. They called us back later that day. A file was opened. The next day, we notified the
RCMP here in New Brunswick that a file had been opened in the jurisdiction of British Columbia.
We acted immediately when the critical mass of information was in our hands.
As I said earlier today in my statement, we have acted in a multipronged fashion. The procedure has
been in place since 1989. We are proceeding toward the area of e-health, and privacy is of the
utmost importance. This is a very serious matter, and we take it seriously. We are acting with all due
diligence, and quickly.
M. Volpé : On en apprend chaque jour. Hier, le ministre disait que l’information n’était pas perdue.
Yesterday, the minister said that the information was not lost, not stolen, just misplaced.
Le vol d’identité est un crime très sérieux — très sérieux. Oui, 485 personnes au Nouveau-
Brunswick ont potentiellement été victimes d’un vol d’identité, mais le ministre ne peut pas réaliser
l’impact. L’information aurait dû être traitée comme si elle avait été volée. C’est ce qui a été fait en
Colombie-Britannique.
La nonchalance et les actions irresponsables du ministre de la Santé ont brisé la confiance des gens
du Nouveau-Brunswick envers le système actuel.
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Ma question pour le ministre est la suivante : Pourquoi avoir attendu sept jours avant de prendre
contact avec la GRC, lorsqu’on sait qu’il s’agit d’un vol d’identité potentiel, et que c’est de cette
façon que cela a été traité en Colombie-Britannique? Pourquoi cela vous a-t-il pris sept jours avant
de réagir et de prendre contact avec la GRC?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: As I have indicated, senior management, after their very short review, as of last
Thursday, when they advised me, were under the impression that the document had been misplaced
and that the courier service was looking for it. They believed it had been misplaced for a number
of days. Documents leave the Department of Health and other government departments, and there
are literally hundreds of thousands of them. Anytime one of them is not received in a few days, we
are not going to call the police, because that would be all that the police would be doing across this
country and in New Brunswick.
When the critical mass of information was obtained, we immediately stepped forward and dealt with
the police and with containment procedures by way of copying the federal protocol. This procedure
has been in place since 1999.
I want to make sure that New Brunswickers know that there is no evidence that this information has
fallen into inappropriate hands or that there has been any type of misuse of it. As I have indicated,
we have started a credit monitoring program. There are many multipronged efforts we are making.
M. Volpé : Franchement, étant donné ce que nous entendons cet après-midi, c’est une honte pour
les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick qui, potentiellement, ont subi un vol d’identité, d’avoir un ministre
comme celui-ci pour les représenter. Il a dit hier qu’il ne considère pas cela comme un vol. Il ne
considère pas que l’information a été perdue ; il considère qu’elle a été mal placée. Il ne sait pas où
est l’information.
He doesn’t know, and I don’t. That is why I am saying here today that this should have been treated
as if the information had been stolen. Identity theft is what this is.
Ce que la Colombie-Britannique a fait, c’est qu’elle a traité cela comme un crime. Au Nouveau-
Brunswick, le ministre de la Santé n’a pas encore réalisé le sérieux de ce qu’il vient de dire. Pour
lui, c’est encore un jeu ; peut-être que c’est nulle part, actuellement.
025 14:45
Pour les actions irresponsables suite à l’information reçue, pour la façon nonchalante dont le
ministre a traité ce dossier très dangereux, pour sa façon cavalière de dire que l’information n’était
pas perdue, pas volée, juste mal placée, pour toutes ces raisons qui ont un impact majeur sur la
confiance des gens du Nouveau-Brunswick envers le gouvernement qui doit les protéger, croyezvous
sincèrement que vous méritez de continuer à remplir votre rôle de ministre?
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Hon. Mr. Murphy: When the cassette went missing, we acted under the circumstances where we
do not know where it is. We then instituted immediate procedures, as I have indicated, by contacting
the police. Ads are going in the paper. We have made an effort. We have called all 485 names, and
letters are going out. New Brunswickers should also know that, with respect to access to that data,
if it were to fall into inappropriate hands, if that were the case, one would have to have a mainframe
computer with obsolete technology, and there is no support for that. This was mainstream in the data
centres of the late 1980s and early 1990s. That is so that New Brunswickers understand the risk.
At the same time, even though the risk appears to be minimal, the reality is that we have acted as
if it were major. As you know, we immediately instituted new procedures and reviews, and asked
the Ombudsman to review. We have also brought forward all the information to the House. The
public knows at this time as much as I know with regard to this. I think New Brunswickers should
know that we are acting proactively. It is very serious, and we take it as such.
M. C. Landry : J’ai de la difficulté à comprendre le ministre quand il dit que c’est minime. Il utilise
le terme « minime ». Ici, on parle de l’identité des personnes, des gens du Nouveau-Brunswick, soit
de 485 personnes. Le ministre de la Santé nous dit que c’est minime. Il a dit :
New Brunswickers are being advised to watch out for any suspect misuse of this information.
Pourquoi le ministre a-t-il attendu une semaine avant de mettrer les services d’une firme de
surveillance du crédit à la disponibilité des 485 personnes du Nouveau-Brunswick qui se posent de
nombreuses questions? Pourquoi avoir attendu une semaine?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: Despite acting, as a government, as if this did fall into inappropriate hands just
a few days ago—I believe my department has acted so quickly and so efficiently—the reality is that
this tape has been missing now for two and a half months and there is no evidence that we are aware
of. We have called all 485 names, we have a call centre going, we have spoken with several dozens.
Nobody has indicated that there has been any interference in their credit or anything suspect, but we
have a credit monitoring program that is starting up. We also know full well that these New
Brunswickers are not responsible for anything that might ever come of this. We are acting quickly
and efficiently.
M. C. Landry : J’ai de la difficulté à comprendre. On sait que les cartouches qui contiennent de
l’information privilégiée des gens du Nouveau-Brunswick sont perdues depuis deux mois. Comment
le ministre peut-il dire que c’est minime et que l’information privilégiée qui concerne l’identité des
personnes n’est pas grand-chose? J’ai de la difficulté à comprendre le ministre. Il sait qu’il y a un
risque présent pour les 485 personnes du Nouveau-Brunswick. Êtes-vous prêt, Monsieur le ministre,
à prendre la responsabilité des coûts financiers qui pourraient être occasionnés à cause de cette perte
d’information privilégiée des citoyens qui sont touchés par cette situation? Le gouvernement doit
prendre ses responsabilités, et le ministre doit garantir que les gens qui pourraient être lésés seront
remboursés.
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Hon. Mr. Murphy: I have indicated that if anything untoward occurred to someone’s credit rating
because of this, of course they are not responsible. A courier company and another private company
are involved, and the government of New Brunswick is involved. We take this very, very seriously.
My friend opposite referenced “pas grand-chose” as if it were not a big thing. It is a big thing, and
we have acted by way of a review, an invitation to the Ombudsman, and by contacting two police
departments. We also have a new courier company in place now. We have also given directives with
regard to people advising senior management and their superiors about anything suspect.
026 14:50
A multitude of actions have been taken. This policy was in place since 1989. We are going forward
to the e-health era. There is going to be privacy legislation, and the e-health initiative will be built
around that privacy legislation. New Brunswickers should know that we take this very seriously.
Mr. Fitch: In the Daily Gleaner today, Stephen Llewellyn wrote that UNB law professor Dave
Townsend, an expert in privacy and security issues, said that the missing health records are an
important issue, and so is the way they were handled. He said that the controversy was handled as
if it were a lost box of nails. Mr. Townsend said that there should have been immediate notification
when the records went missing so that an investigation could begin right away. He said that, adding
to the delay, the delay was unacceptable.
These are the reasons that we have been calling for the minister’s resignation. We have been calling
for the minister’s resignation because there was a lack of action when the situation became apparent.
It is because of pressure from this opposition that you have now done some of the things you have
done. It is you, your actions, your delay, and your incompetence that have broken the trust and
confidence of the people of New Brunswick. That is why we are calling for your resignation. Will
you resign?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: Probably the foremost expert in public administration in this country, with
global recognition, Donald Savoie, has spoken very eloquently with regard to ministerial
responsibility. The term that he used this morning . . . I am not sure it is parliamentary, so I will just
leave it to the readers of New Brunswick as to the action of the member opposite.
The reality is that New Brunswickers should know that the review procedure, on a multitude of
fronts, is under way. The Ombudsman’s Office was advised in writing and in meetings, and there
is another meeting today. Mechanisms are being put in place, and we await further word from the
Richmond police regarding the courier service. A depot manager was interviewed, and I am sure that
other aspects have been followed up by the police.
Mr. Fitch: We know what is going on now, and it was only through the prompting of the opposition
that some of these actions took place. The MLA for Lamèque-Shippagan-Miscou said that the
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RCMP should be called in here in New Brunswick. It was this opposition that said that British
Columbia is already moving forward on a number of issues, such as credit protection. The future
of 485 people is now in question. It is not just one year; it is their future livelihood and future
identity. If I were one of those 485 people, I would certainly be calling for your resignation.
I will ask again. The inaction of this minister when he found out what was going on, and the action,
only prompted by this opposition, again lead me to the conclusion that the minister needs to resign.
Will the minister resign today?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: I want to make it clear for New Brunswickers who may be watching or who
have been made aware of these proceedings that the comment indicating that people’s future
livelihood is at stake is not correct. The reality is that, in order to access the information on those
cassettes, one would have to have a mainframe computer, obsolete data. It is something that has not
been used for the past many years. It was basically used in data centres in the mainstream at the
time.
With regard to the awareness that this was missing, the impression provided to me last Thursday
afternoon was that the information had been misplaced, and the courier service was looking for it.
We were made aware of critical information, critical mass, on Monday. However, hundreds of
thousands of documents leave the Departments of Health in all governments across this country.
When something is delayed for a few days, naturally the police are not called.
Mr. Fitch: On Terry Seguin’s show this morning, an RCMP officer said that the information that
is available would cause it to be easy to commit ID theft. That is not verbatim, but that was the gist
of the conversation. That idea could lead to problems in the future for these 485 people, beyond one
year. The point of the matter is that, on Thursday, when the minister was informed of the situation,
instead of picking up the ball and running with it and doing what he should have done, he sat on the
sideline and wondered what was going to happen and what he should do.
027 14:55
In hoping that the thing would just go away, the minister caused more damage to those 485 people
in New Brunswick. The delay is unacceptable. This delay and inaction is why we need to call for
the resignation of the minister today.
Hon. Mr. Murphy: I think it is important for the people of New Brunswick to know that in a
conversation I had with the Minister of Health of British Columbia, and his officials and my
officials, we reviewed the process in place that had been ongoing for several months prior to the
disappearance of these tapes. That was a process between those two governments, our departments,
our operations, and our Medicare departments. We had in place, and coming to a conclusion, an
encryption process for a DVD with password.
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We have also put in place consultations now with Quebec, Saskatchewan, the Northwest Territories,
and Nunavut to see how they would be more secure in receiving information. They receive
information by way of paper. Some of it with Quebec is hospital to hospital, but it is primarily
through the department. We are moving toward the e-health initiative. Privacy is of utmost
importance. The initiative will be built around the privacy legislation. I will have more to say with
regard to the stakeholder group on the drafting of it.
Postsecondary Education
Mrs. Blaney: It is clear that this is a government in crisis management mode. It is crystal clear today
that it will do absolutely everything and anything it can to avoid discussing issues that it does not
want to deal with, such as postsecondary education. This government is doing everything it can to
delay discussion and debate on that issue. We have students who are actually running a tally. This
is day 90 since the Post-Secondary Education Commission released its recommendation. The
students have not heard one whisper of support for UNB, and, in particular UNBSJ. In fact, the
media has taken to calling the five ministers in the Saint John region “the silent five”.
There is one minister who has never, ever been silent on anything in his life. He has never backed
down from a fight. I would like to know why the political minister for the Saint John region—the
Minister of Supply and Services—is not standing up and fighting for UNBSJ, and why he is not
standing up and fighting for Saint John.
Hon. S. Graham: I would like to remind the member opposite of the rules of question period, that
a question must be directed to the minister responsible. Yet, she did not take that responsibility
today. Therefore, I felt it was appropriate to respond on behalf of government.
I will remind the member opposite that we accept the responsibility of this debate. That is why we
launched an independent commission on the future of postsecondary education, the first such review
that has been undertaken in over 40 years. Where the previous government failed to act on this,
where it avoided its responsibilities, we on this side want to take the time to get this right. It has
been over 40 years. That is why we now have four university presidents, and four community
college principals, working collectively together on how the implementation of the report can be
brought forward that best meets the needs of the student, the marketplace, and also sees better
integration of the system.
Mrs. Blaney: The Premier is clearly not familiar with the rules. There is no rule that we have to
direct questions to any particular minister, or to the minister responsible for a file. This is, in fact,
the senior minister for the Saint John region, who has never backed down from a fight in his life.
Obviously, he has either been muzzled, or he does not care about what happens to UNBSJ. Can the
minister tell us, which is it? Has he been muzzled, or does he not care?
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Hon. S. Graham: After question period, we will have the member look at the rules of question
period. Very clearly, ministers are not to comment on constituency issues. The minister responsible
is to comment on matters pertaining to that file. As Premier, I am standing today, very clearly
focused on the needs of the future of our students. I know that, by working cooperatively together,
we are going to build a stronger post secondary education system. We are going to deal with the
issue of student debt load.
Our actions speak for themselves. Where the former government—and I want to reiterate this
message—failed to deal with the issue pertaining to the student loan and access to student loans, we
eliminated the parental contribution requirement. That means that, today, more students have access
to funding than ever before in our province’s history.
028 15:00
Mrs. Blaney: The rules of the House are clear. Questions can be directed to any minister of the
Crown. The rules are very clear. Again, my question is for the minister responsible for the Saint
John region. You are the senior minister. Obviously, you have been muzzled. I cannot imagine,
because you have never been muzzled in your entire life. You have never been muzzled, maybe with
the exception of your wife. However, I cannot imagine why you are not standing up. You have
received hundreds, if not thousands, of phone calls and e-mails from people in our region. Why are
you not standing up and fighting for the people of Saint John? They elected you to fight for them,
and you are not fighting. Why not?
Hon. Mr. Doherty: I would like to assure the member opposite that none of us has been muzzled,
but we do, in fact, have the courage for innovative change. We have the courage to address issues
like student debt, such as $30 000 per year. We have the courage to address issues such as
transferability of credits. Who would think of buying a $30 000 car without any guarantee? Students
at universities pay $30 000 without any guarantee that their courses can be transferable to another
program. Who would think that the labour market in Saint John . . . The unemployment rate in Saint
John is at its lowest ever.
(Interjection.)
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Hon. Mr. Doherty: Who would ever think that we would not provide training?
Mr. Speaker: I will tolerate some banter back and forth, but we are getting to a point where we can
hear neither the question nor the answer. You have a few seconds left.
Hon. Mr. Doherty: To the member opposite and a former Minister of Post-Secondary Education,
I might add, our desire is to see that our students have jobs here in New Brunswick. We provide the
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proper training for them, so that they can fill these jobs. We will insist that the university in Saint
John is improved and enhanced.
Mr. Holder: My questions are also for the Minister of Post-Secondary Education, Training and
Labour. I am wondering if the minister can tell us if he has personally talked to any recruiters with
the university, on the ground, and gotten any feedback with respect to how recruitment is going this
year, compared to last year? What specifically have they told him with respect to how that job is
going?
Hon. Mr. Doherty: Thank you for the question. As you know, the university in Saint John is very
dear to our hearts and dear to the heart of the member opposite. I had discussions with the registrar
as of last week, and as far as we can tell, there has been no change in local student recruitment this
year over last year. It is a little bit early to tell, but I was assured that, probably, there has not been
any change.
Mr. Holder: I am getting different information. My colleagues and I have spoken with recruiters
who have been on the ground this fall, and they told us that they are having an incredibly difficult
job recruiting. In some cases, they are even being laughed at. They are told: Is that not the place that
is going to close in a couple of years? We need to end this uncertainty in our 90th day. We need to
decide, once and for all, whether there will be a liberal arts program at the University of New
Brunswick in Saint John. That is the question, and we need that answered sooner rather than later.
Will the minister end that uncertainty today?
Hon. Mr. Doherty: I can assure you that there will always be a university in Saint John. Our desire
is to improve the facility of the university, and we are going to enhance it to meet the labour market
needs in our city. As you know, this is a great time for Saint John. We are experiencing record
economic growth, and this growth will be driven by our educational institutions.
029 15:05
Mr. Harrison: The Premier says that he is student-focused and that the PSE report is studentfocused,
but the students of UNB have said differently. Two weeks ago today, they passed a motion
refuting the Premier’s claim. They said it was not student-focused. The Premier will not even allow
the students to access the working group on PSE. So far, the Premier has ignored the students’
request for access to the working group. Now, the students have put it to him in a motion. Will he
give them access? Will the Premier commit to making this a student-focused process by supporting
their motion, or will he whip the caucus into rejecting the claims of students? Will the Premier and
his caucus vote for students and vote with the opposition when the motion comes to the floor today?
Hon. S. Graham: I want to make it very clear that our government takes the issue of improving the
system of postsecondary education very seriously. That is why, early on our government’s mandate,
when the members opposite said that a $2 000 grant for first-year university students was not
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appropriate, we, on this side, voted in favour of and actually implemented that program. We also
eliminated the parental contribution requirement, something that members on that side of the House
voted against year over year. On the first day in office, we gave access to better student funding for
our students in the province. Our actions speak for themselves. An independent commission was
promised by the former government for three years, and that government failed to implement it. We
moved expeditiously to put in place this independent commission. We have now received a
comprehensive report. In fact, many student groups across the province were instrumental in the
development of that report. Many student groups were also on the advisory committee and provided
input to the independent commissioners. I would have to say that since that report was received by
the government, we have met with student groups at the Cabinet table. The minister continues to
meet with student groups. I have also instructed the community college principals and presidents
to meet with student groups.
Mr. Harrison: There we have it. He will not commit to supporting the students’ motion. Is he
saying the students are wrong? They have deliberated over this, considered it, and concluded that
this Premier has failed in his mandate to include students in the process. Will he support their
motion? We don’t want any waffling. We don’t want equivocation. Either the Premier agrees with
the students or he does not. He will not commit to supporting them, so he must disagree with them.
Amending the motion today, on their part, if that is what their plan is, will be voting against
students. Is the Premier prepared to say today that the students of UNB are wrong in their
assessment of his government?
Hon. S. Graham: As I stated previously, our government is committed to improving the system of
postsecondary education for students and the future of this province, toward the goal of selfsufficiency.
Very clearly, we feel it is wrong that students who are taking courses at UNBSJ in Saint
John have some difficulty transferring those credits to UNB in Fredericton. That is why these
programs have to see greater integration of the system, especially as it pertains to community
colleges. Today, certain community college programs are accepted by other universities, but
students have difficulty transferring those credits to our universities in New Brunswick, as was
identified by the independent commission.
We are now working with the working group. We are waiting for a model to be proposed that will
allow better integration which is more student-focused and which, at the same time, will help those
students to be able to receive the training that will allow them to have jobs in our province when
they complete that training.
L’hon. P. Robichaud : Le rapport sur l’éducation postsecondaire a été porté à l’attention du
gouvernement du Nouveau-Brunswick il y a maintenant 90 jours, et il n’y a toujours aucune action
de la part du gouvernement jusqu’à ce jour.
(Exclamation.)
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L’hon. P. Robichaud : Si le ministre des Finances voulait se lever et répondre aux questions, il
aurait peut-être plus de succès que ses collègues, parce que, jusqu’à présent, on n’a pas beaucoup
de réponses de la part du gouvernement.
Le ministre de l’Éducation postsecondaire, de la Formation et du Travail vient de confirmer à la
Chambre il y a 5 ou 10 minutes qu’il y aura toujours une présence universitaire à Saint John.
Cependant, la définition des termes « présence universitaire » reste très vague dans les paroles du
ministre et du gouvernement.
030 15:10
Le ministre de l’Éducation postsecondaire, de la Formation et du Travail peut-il prendre le même
engagement, aujourd’hui, pour les composantes de l’Université de Moncton, à Edmundston et à
Shippagan? Peut-il prendre exactement le même engagement qu’il y aura également une présence
universitaire à Edmundston et à Shippagan? Que veut-il dire par une « présence universitaire »?
Hon. S. Graham: I think it is important to set the record straight, today, once again. The member
from Shippagan has the audacity to say that we have waited approximately 90 days to work with the
working group, when his former government waited over 1 150 days to actually implement an
independent commission to study and to move forward on these reforms. While the members
opposite waited three years, we are working decisively now, and we are anxiously awaiting the
working group’s recommendations in the new year. At that time, we will be working to better
integrate the system. We will also be reducing student debt load and meeting the needs of the
students. Finally, we will make sure that the workforce requirements of the marketplace are met.
M. P. Robichaud : Le premier ministre et son ministre ne semblent pas réaliser que les 90 jours en
question touchent énormément le recrutement de l’Université de Moncton, campus de Shippagan
et d’Edmundston, et l’Université du Nouveau-Brunswick, à Saint John. Comment pensez-vous que
ces gens-là peuvent recruter des étudiants quand ils ne connaissent même pas l’avenir de leurs
établissements d’études postsecondaires? C’est ce qu’ils se font dire toutes les fois qu’ils recrutent
des étudiants. Voilà l’importance de donner immédiatement une indication claire, nette et précise
aux établissements universitaires du Nouveau-Brunswick. Le premier ministre, son ministre ou peu
importe qui, du côté du gouvernement, veut répondre à la question est-il prêt à prendre un
engagement semblable pour les composantes de l’Université de Moncton, à Edmundston et à
Shippagan, et à rassurer la population qu’il y aura bel et bien une présence universitaire à
Edmundston et à Shippagan, dirigée par l’Université de Moncton, oui ou non? La question est
pourtant simple.
Hon. S. Graham: Again, I will remind the member opposite that their three years of inaction
affected tens of thousands of students who did not have the ability to have a better integrated system.
I will be very clear today, as we have been from day one, that we are working with the university
presidents. In fact, all four university presidents have very clearly stated that the process is working.
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They are engaged. We take the word of the university presidents that the work that is being
undertaken now will lead to a better system that will meet the needs of the students today.
Le président : Le temps est échu.