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Attribution du bois
M. Volpé : Ce matin, le premier ministre a dit à la Chambre qu’il avait mentionné aux gens de
Dalhousie que les attributions des volumes de bois demeureraient dans la région.
019 14:15
Yesterday, here in the House, he said that it is no longer one community in New Brunswick versus
another. They will be making sure that the flow of wood remains in New Brunswick.
Can the Premier confirm that he has changed his mind overnight? Now he has changed his policy,
and will leave the wood where it should be, within those regions? Is that what he said this morning?
Hon. S. Graham: The Leader of the Opposition should know the forestry file. He was the former
Minister of Natural Resources. Under Schedule F of the forest management plan, it is very clear that
wood does move from license to license. I will use the example of the Upsalquitch license, license
number one. Groupe Savoie has an allocation of approximately 107 m3. Yet, they source wood from
a number of other licenses as well across the province.
The way the forest management plan operates is wood does flow from license to license. On this
license, Bowater, today, has an allocation of 255 000 m3. With the decision of the company now to
suspend operations permanently, we are looking for a legal opinion from Justice officials to see how
we can access that wood in a more timely fashion, and use it for economic diversification in the
region. I want to be very clear: That wood will be used as an economic development tool for the
region.
Mr. Volpé: As you are probably aware, this is exactly what we have asked, this is what the private
woodlot owners have asked, and this is what all organizations have asked over the past few months
since the policy came in. The Shawn Graham policy says that you can move wood from one region
to another region. Now he just changed his mind, and that is the right thing to do. Backtracking
sometimes is a good thing, and we appreciate that this morning he was ready to change his mind on
it.
My next question to the Premier is this: Because of what is happening now, private woodlot owners
have a hard time selling their wood.
Ce matin, ma question est pour le premier ministre. Est-il prêt à changer la politique et à revenir au
concept de la source primaire d’approvisionnement?
Primary source of supply for one year, or until the market conditions change, because private
woodlot owners are losing markets, because the mills are closing across the province. What we are
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asking for is to modify the Act, to say that you again have a primary source of supply for one year,
or until market conditions come back.
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: I want to clarify another thing as well. It seems the opposition is quite
confused. When we talked about the interim policy that was put in place a couple months ago, and
which terminates at the end of this month, it was for sawmill rationalization. That is what it was
for—sawmills. Today, we are talking about Bowater, and that is a pulp and paper mill and has
nothing to do with sawmills. That is the difference, and you should know your file as well.
As for the private woodlot owners, yes, they are in difficulty. The industry is having a hard time,
and the private woodlot owners are having a hard time selling their wood. We are working
proactively with them to find ways to access the market and for them to be part of this whole
solution. The Premier, myself, industry, and private woodlots have sat around the table on many
occasions. We will continue to do so to find the right solutions for the people in New Brunswick.
M. Volpé : Je sais que le premier ministre n’avait pas la réponse, mais le ministre des Ressources
naturelles est encore plus confus que le premier ministre. Le ministre vient de semer un autre doute.
La politique qui a été changée par le premier ministre ce matin vient d’être rechangée par le
ministre.
Le ministre dit que, pour ceux qui opèrent des scieries, la politique peut encore être appliquée. On
peut encore enlever des attributions de bois dans les régions pour les envoyer ailleurs. C’est ce que
le ministre vient de nous dire. Le premier ministre vient de nous dire que le gouvernement
maintiendra les volumes en place pour créer du développement économique dans les régions. Le
ministre se lève, et c’est la confusion totale.
J’ai une question. Si le ministre veut y répondre, j’espère qu’il prendra le temps d’y penser avant
de répondre.
Les producteurs de boisés privés ont perdu l’accès aux marchés parce que des usines ferment au
Nouveau-Brunswick. On se demande tout simplement pourquoi on ne reviendrait pas au concept de
la source primaire d’approvisionnement pour une période d’un an, en attendant que les marchés se
replacent, pour permettre aux producteurs de boisés privés d’avoir accès aux marchés. Si les usines
manquent de bois après en avoir acheté des producteurs privés, qu’ils aillent en chercher sur les
terres de la Couronne. C’était la politique en place de 1982 à 1992. Cela pourrait être encore mis en
place parce que les conditions du marché ont changé, avec plusieurs fermetures d’usines. Êtes-vous
prêt à changer la politique?
Hon. Mr. Arseneault: First of all, if there is any confusion, I know the difference between a pulp
and paper mill and a sawmill. I think that is where the confusion is on the other side. I do want to
stress something here. Last week was very difficult, both personally and professionally, for myself
and for our community in Dalhousie. We lost the livelihood of that community. That operation has
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been there for 78 years. The mood in that community over the weekend, since the announcement,
was very dim.
I want to be clear on this. I got a call from the mayor late Saturday afternoon that he was asked to
go to a meeting. When he showed up at that meeting, the member for Restigouche-la-Vallée was
sitting there with a federal Tory candidate. I want to be very clear: This is not about politics. This
is about people, and you had better start having more class than playing politics with my community.
020 14:20
M. Volpé : C’est une honte ce matin. Le ministre responsable du secteur forestier n’était pas présent
à une réunion dans sa région il y a trois semaines, où on parlait de l’avenir du secteur forestier.
Aujourd’hui, il se lève à la Chambre pour dire qu’il n’aime pas le fait qu’un autre député aille chez
lui faire son travail, un travail qu’il ne fait pas. Si ce n’était pas de l’opposition, la politique sur la
rétention du bois n’aurait pas changé, elle serait toujours la même. On a fait notre travail, le député
de Restigouche-la-Vallée a fait son travail et il va continuer de le faire. Il va défendre les intérêts
de votre région, parce que vous ne le faites pas.
Encore une fois, le ministre n’a pas répondu à ma question. Les producteurs de boisés privés veulent
une réponse. Êtes-vous prêt ou non à modifier la loi afin de vous assurer qu’ils aient accès à un
marché équitable? Le marché a disparu, parce que plusieurs usines sont fermées au Nouveau-
Brunswick.
Private woodlot owners do not have the markets that they had a year ago. Mills are closing in New
Brunswick. All we are asking is this: For one year, can you bring back primary source of supply,
until the market conditions change?
Hon. S. Graham: I want to be very clear, on this side of the Chamber this afternoon, that we are
doing our work. In fact, we are working right now to see improved productivity and efficiencies with
Fraser. That is in the riding of the member opposite. Tonight, I am invited by community leaders
to give a keynote address in that community, because it believes in the leadership that our
government is providing to bring sustainability to the long-term economic outlook of the forest
industry. I am very proud today, as Premier, to address stakeholders in the riding of the member
opposite, because we do believe in companies like Fraser, and, as a government, we are prepared
to invest.
M. Volpé : C’est dommage de ne pas recevoir de réponse lorsqu’on pose une question. Si le premier
ministre ne connaît pas la réponse, qu’il reste assis. Ma question était très simple. Je voulais savoir
si vous étiez prêt, oui ou non, à modifier la politique pour redonner accès au marché aux producteurs
de boisés privés du Nouveau-Brunswick. Le premier ministre s’est levé pour dire qu’il viendrait
faire sa tournée dans le Nord-Ouest aujourd’hui. Cela n’a rien à voir du tout avec la question. Si
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vous ne connaissez pas la réponse, restez donc assis et demandez à quelqu’un qui connaît la réponse.
Ce sera moins gênant pour les gens du Nouveau-Brunswick.
The question is very simple. Are you ready, yes or no, to change the policy for one year to give
access to markets for private woodlots in New Brunswick—for one year? It would not be the end
of the world. That is all we are asking for, a yes or a no.
Hon. S. Graham: The positive outlook that the member promised he was going to bring to this
session has not materialized. What we are seeing today is a minister who, for seven years, dealt with
this file and did not implement the policy that he is asking for today. Our government committed,
in this throne speech, to develop a fair and equitable market treatment for the supply of private wood
in New Brunswick. We are now meeting with stakeholders to bring forward changes that will allow
fair and equitable market supply conditions to be met. I have to say that the discussions have been
very positive between industry and the private woodlot owners in New Brunswick.
I want to be clear. Today, what the member opposite is proposing is not what Fraser is proposing
in the member’s own riding. What it is asking for today is for government assistance for strategic
infrastructure investments. That is what company officials are asking for, and that is what this
government will deliver.
M. Volpé : J’anticipe ce que la Fraser aura dans la région, parce qu’elle a déjà eu de l’aide lorsqu’on
était au pouvoir.
We did put some money into it. We put $2.6 million into training. We helped Fraser. You canceled
all the policies that were in place, so do not . . . We see the difference today. He says: I am here for
Fraser, Irving, and the big companies. I am talking about woodlot owners who cannot sell their
products now. That is who I am talking about.
My question is very simple. The minister said: What have you done? In 1982, when the policy was
put in place, there were enough markets, and in 1992, the Act was changed by former Premier
McKenna. There was so much market that the private woodlot owners were able to sell their
products. All I am saying is that it changed within the last year, with all the mill closures in New
Brunswick. It is not a political question. It is a very simple question. You are saying that I do not
represent the interests of people. This is where I am trying to get an answer from you. Are you here
to represent the private woodlot owners or the large corporations? They want to be able to sell their
products, and they cannot.
021 14:25
I am saying: For one year, can you change the rules and bring it back to 1982? They could sell their
wood. Then, if there is not enough wood, let people go to Crown lands. That is all I am asking. It
is very simple.
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Hon. S. Graham: While the official opposition is worried about 1982, this government is worried
about 2026. We are going to be bringing forward policies that are going to set this province apart
from other jurisdictions, and that means working with all stakeholders. While the opposition is stuck
looking in the past, in the rearview mirror, we are looking solidly toward the future of our province.
Our government is committed to working with all stakeholders, such as the private woodlot owners.
Those discussions are ongoing, and I have to say that they have been very positive to date.
Pulp and Paper Mills
Mr. Mockler: The Premier should stop contracting out New Brunswick to his friends. When I hear
the member from Dalhousie telling me not to do politics, I have been elected since 1982 to defend
the people of my riding and the people of northern New Brunswick, and I will continue to do so. At
this time, the people of Dalhousie and of Restigouche-Chaleur live in fear—fear of losing their
quality of life, fear of losing their houses, fear of losing their cars, fear of losing their assets, fear
of not being able to help their children who are at universities. My question to the Premier is: Can
the Premier guarantee the employees of the Dalhousie mill that the $100 million that is in their
pensions will not be lost?
Hon. S. Graham: Yesterday, we had a very productive meeting with the union. I have to say that
we are going to have direct contact with the union officials. I am in the process of scheduling a
meeting with the chief executives of AbitibiBowater. A number of questions must be answered by
the company. We are working cooperatively with the leadership of the community of Dalhousie, the
town council, and the union members, to determine what questions must be answered. I will be
taking a leadership role. Yes, the pension issue must be defined, as well as the infrastructure within
the region. There is a very important issue of how the company is going to dispose of the asset. This
is much different from the acquisition of the asset by St. Anne-Nackawic, because, when that
company went into receivership, the province of New Brunswick was a prime creditor, so it was able
to overtake ownership of that asset. Today, we do not have any ownership in the asset of the
AbitibiBowater facility in Dalhousie, so the circumstances are different. Still, I can tell you today
that the commitment is strong. The union members will be included in the discussions with company
officials.
Mr. Mockler: When I hear the Premier talk about how it must be defined, the people of Dalhousie
think: It is not that it must be defined; it must be protected.
Quand j’écoute les gens de Restigouche-Chaleur et, particulièrement, de Dalhousie, je sais qu’ils
ont peur de perdre leur emploi permanent, leur maison, leur voiture et leur qualité de vie. Ils ont peur
de ne pas être capables d’aider financièrement leurs enfants inscrits aux universités et d’être obligés
de quitter le Nord pour s’en aller en Alberta. Ma question pour le premier ministre est la suivante :
Le premier ministre peut-il rassurer les gens de Dalhousie et les employés de l’usine de Dalhousie
qu’il arrêtera le démantèlement de l’usine AbitibiBowater à la fin janvier 2008?
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Hon. S. Graham: As I very clearly stated, the government of New Brunswick has no ownership in
this asset. We want to put together a clear strategy and work with the diversification committee, to
show that there are other opportunities. We recognize that newsprint will not continue to be
produced at this facility. The decision was made by the company to take newsprint demand out of
the marketplace, but there are other opportunities. This asset will allow other entrepreneurs to come
into the region. I know that the Minister of Business New Brunswick has received a number of
phone calls from a number of interested parties that we are now going to bring to the attention of
AbitibiBowater. They may be able to use this facility in another manner. We are going to leave no
stone unturned. However, what is very troubling today is that, on the weekend, we saw the member
opposite go into the community to fearmonger and use scare tactics.
022 14:30
Today, what the community requires more than ever is strong leadership. What I am asking the
member to do today is to put aside the partisan politics and work with us to develop a long-term
strategy, so that the people of Restigouche and the citizens of Dalhousie will see other opportunities
arise from this vital wood supply.
Mr. Mockler: I will accept the invitation of the Premier to participate. With the experience that we
have, we can find a solution to protect the people of Dalhousie, and we will do that.
I hear the Premier, and he has not responded. He has not answered the question. It is not to dismantle
the mill. Do you know why they are concerned? They are concerned because you told the Liberal
candidate in Dalhousie during the last campaign: Donald, promise anything to get elected. Do you
know what? He promised to deliver 10 beds, and people are still waiting for that. He promised 24-
hour care in the hospital, and people are still waiting for it. That is not keeping your promises.
Ce que je veux savoir est ceci : Le premier ministre est-il prêt à mettre des fonds en place pour venir
en aide au Centre d’excellence en bois ouvré, situé à Campbellton, étant donné que, dans le moment,
on a besoin de spécialistes dans le domaine et que nous n’avons pas d’argent pour venir en aide à
l’industrie forestière? Êtes-vous prêt à regarder à des solutions de rechange pour ce qui est de
l’industrie forestière? Vous avez tout réduit, Monsieur le premier ministre, mais êtes-vous prêt à
venir en aide au collège communautaire de Campbellton?
Hon. S. Graham: Again, I want to be very clear. We had a very productive meeting yesterday. The
union membership was very encouraged.
The member opposite, by raising his voice in the Chamber today, is not lending credibility to his
party. I would remind the member opposite that he does not represent the people of Dalhousie. The
Minister of Natural Resources does. The Minister of Natural Resources was in the community the
entire weekend. He was not in for a quick photo op and then out. He was there with the citizens the
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entire weekend, sharing the grief, sharing the pain, and looking positively toward a long-term
solution.
This must rise above partisan politics. Yesterday, I was encouraged that it had, indeed, transcended
political lines after the comments from the Prime Minister. Stephen Harper very clearly understands
the difficulties that northern New Brunswick is facing, and I am encouraged today that the federal
government wants to lend a helping hand in helping affected mill workers in the regions. We are
anxiously going to be working with the federal government, and I can tell you today that Stephen
Harper understands and this government understands. It is unfortunate that the member opposite
does not.
Ambulance Services
Mr. Alward: New Brunswick’s ambulance service providers have been left out in the cold, and this
government does not seem to care. It is incomprehensible that negotiations among the Department
of Health, Medavie Blue Cross, and New Brunswick ambulance operators did not start until August,
and it then took the department until October to send an initial offer. Either the minister and the
Premier have no idea of what is going on with these negotiations, or they have given Medavie Blue
Cross their full support.
My question is for the minister. If this government is serious about fairness and transparency, why
did he wait until the eleventh hour to initiate negotiations with the operators?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The negotiations with the 39 providers have been ongoing for months now.
There are a few private operators that have not concluded with Medavie Blue Cross, which is the
agent for the Department of Health. We, on this side of the House, are concerned with one thing:
the safety of New Brunswickers. We have a uniformed ambulance service coming into place on
December 16. We will ensure that we have ambulances, equipment, and paramedics, because the
safety of New Brunswickers is the number one thing.
Mr. Alward: What is so concerning about the ministers comments is this. Certainly, the safety of
New Brunswickers has to be our fullest intent. We certainly understand that, and we certainly
support going to a one-service provider system. That leaves the whole question of why, if this is
such a vital move for the government, the minister has stalled and bullied the operators through
every avenue of these negotiations. Some of these individuals have been providing this essential
service for New Brunswickers for 40 years. Why has the minister refused to negotiate fairly and in
good faith with New Brunswick’s ambulance operators?
023 14:35
Hon. Mr. Murphy: If offering the private ambulance operators a percentage of next year’s contract,
which there was no legal obligation to do, is bullying, then so be it. They have been offered that. If
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buying them out of their equipment at fair market value when there is no obligation to do so is
bullying, then so be it. If telling New Brunswickers that we are protecting them, and that is our first
and foremost idea on this side of the House, is bullying somehow, then so be it.
The reality is that offers have been made. There have been no counteroffers made by the opposing
side, that being the private ambulance operators. Another offer was made yesterday. On Friday, that
offer will lapse, and that will be it. The number one thing will be the safety of New Brunswickers.
Those who fear for their health, who have heart attacks, asthma, trauma—it does not matter—we
are going to look after them. We are not going to worry about lawsuits.
Mr. Alward: Let’s talk about bullying. I will quote from a Medavie Blue Cross e-mail, which states:
George was wondering if we could earmark a facility in one of the communities where VanTassel,
Allain, Ralston, Daemon are located to lease instead of leasing from the current operator. I
understand from Doug that VanTassel is negotiating and we are getting close. I don’t think we want
Daemon’s facilities. That leaves Ralston and Allain.
What George is thinking is that if some of these guys delay the lease signings, because they are
unhappy with the acquisition offer—we need to show them that we . . . can move on without them . . .
At this point we just want to be ready to pull the trigger.
I am sure that the minister knows full well that those people identified were all members of the
executive. Clearly, this was a divisive and bullying tactic which was absolutely not in the public
interest. Does the minister condone this sort of unfair negotiation, where it is my way or the
highway? Did he instruct Medavie Blue Cross to treat operators in this manner?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: The operators have received a very fair offer. We indicated that Friday is the
deadline, and it will be over at that point. I am appalled that the member opposite and the opposition
have taken the safety of New Brunswickers to be their political toy of the day, much like the
member for Restigouche-la-Vallée, who does the political dance with the fortunes of the people of
Dalhousie. That is wrong. He went down to Moncton yesterday, simply to get his picture taken, so
he is dancing with the stars. They are playing a game with the safety of New Brunswickers. That is
wrong. Fair offers have been made. A new ambulance system will come into existence, and the
people of New Brunswick, no matter what their plight, will be protected.
M. C. Landry : Oui, on se préoccupe de la sécurité des gens du Nouveau-Brunswick, et c’est
important.
Is the Minister of Health aware of the future and ongoing liability requirements of the ambulance
operators for past and future claims? We are talking about liability, and they are not treated fairly.
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Hon. Mr. Murphy: I am aware of that situation, and that does trouble me, because the private
ambulance operators have an immaculate and perfect reputation in this province. They have served
the province very well. That is a concern of mine. An offer was made, and I am sure the responses
should be had from those private operators. I have indicated previously that discussions are
available. We need the private operators to respond. That is the nature of negotiations. The member
opposite has raised a point that does concern me.
M. C. Landry : Je suis content d’entendre que le ministre est concerné par la question des
responsabilités. Ce que l’on comprend, c’est que le ministre ne tient pas compte de ces propriétaires
d’ambulance. Ils font un excellent travail, ils sont au service de la population du Nouveau-
Brunswick depuis plusieurs années. Ils ont des dépenses, des loyers et des endroits où ces
ambulances sont gardées. Ce sont des entrepreneurs, mais le ministre ne prend pas soin d’eux, il ne
les traite pas de façon juste.
Given that this is a real issue, with serious financial implications to the operators, would these costs
not be included in any normal business deal?
024 14:40
Hon. Mr. Murphy: Business deals are based upon legal right and contracts in place. It will lapse
in the middle of December. The ambulance operators have been offered fair market value for their
assets, which are needed. However, Medavie Blue Cross has indicated that it can proceed in its
absence. The member opposite has indicated that there is a problem with regard to liability, and that
concerns me.
The money being paid for these assets is the money of the taxpayers of New Brunswick. I cannot
be any more generous than is obligated by law. Also, to ensure a smooth transition, I said that we
would be more than fair. That is the reason that an offer has been made on a percentage of next
year’s contract, for which there is no legal basis. On a global basis, we want to be fair. The operators
can take an offer with regard to assets, and they can litigate, if they so choose, with regard to a
percentage of the contract. There are a number of ways in which to resolve this. I just do not think
that the safety of New Brunswickers should be used as a bargaining chip by anyone.
M. C. Landry : Je sais qu’on doit être juste envers les exploitants privés. Habituellement, lorsqu’un
service d’ambulance est vendu, l’acheteur est chargé de la responsabilité professionnelle. On leur
impose cela pour les trois prochaines années, ce qui est inacceptable.
Medavie Blue Cross has not been willing to enter into any discussion with the ambulance operators
regarding the future and the past liability coverage. Does the minister realize that this places forprofit
and nonprofit communities and New Brunswickers at risk? Will the minister instruct Medavie
Blue Cross to enter in negotiations, in good faith, with the operators to ensure that all past, present,
and future liabilities are duly covered? Anything less would be irresponsible from this government.
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Hon. Mr. Murphy: The money used to purchase assets is the money of the people of New
Brunswick. My friend opposite indicates that a normal business deal is that, when you purchase a
business, you purchase the liability. We have indicated for many months that we are not purchasing
a business, because the only customers that these businesses have is the government of New
Brunswick, which is the people of New Brunswick. We are purchasing assets.
With regard to liability, yes, that is something that concerns me, because these people have operated
great businesses and have served the people of New Brunswick very well. They are being treated
very fairly. I do not like to hear the member opposite somehow fearmonger to indicate that the safety
of New Brunswickers will somehow be at issue, because it will not be.
Mr. Carr: We have asked these questions months ago. They were important then, and they are even
more important now. Because these questions could not be answered then and are not answered now,
that does not mean that the private ambulance operators have to be held hostage at the eleventh hour.
These are valid questions that need to be answered. These are operators who have received a
livelihood, because they provided good service. It is a service to the government and to the people
of New Brunswick, but it is also about fairness.
Talking about assets, is the minister aware that his department is in possession of the proprietary
business information that belongs to the ambulance operators? Will he agree that this is an integral
asset to their business operations?
Hon. Mr. Murphy: We are in possession of information ongoing with many service providers in
this province to the Department of Health. We pay for a service, including the service of ambulance
operators around this province. At this point, information is provided to us, and that information is
paid for. It is in the possession and ownership of the Department of Health.
Mr. Carr: The minister says today that he is concerned about the liability questions. Last spring,
these questions were raised about liability. The operators are very concerned about this, in particular,
the nonprofit and the voluntary operators, who sit voluntarily on a board for their community, some
for up to 40 years. This is certainly of importance. Now that we are down to the eleventh hour before
the so-called deadline, he says that it is important. Will he delay this deadline? “Delay” is a strong
word, but will he ensure that these issues are finalized and looked after before pushing the operators
aside? Two letters have been sent to the department from the operators, asking that the department
return this proprietary information, as it is their possession and their information, and that it not be
used. Is the minister aware that the department has failed to respond to either of these two requests?
025 14:45
Hon. Mr. Murphy: As I have indicated, we, as a department, buy services. Information is provided
to us which becomes the property of the Department of Health. To be clear for the people of New
Brunswick, a fair market value has been offered for the equipment and supplies of the ambulance
HANSARD DAILY / FASCICULE
December 4, 2007 Not finalized / Non finalisé le 4 décembre 2007
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operators in this province—the private ambulance operators who have 55 of the 125 ambulances.
The ambulances themselves are leased and will be taken over by the province at a certain point in
time in the near future.
With regard to the liability aspect, I have indicated to the member for Tracadie that that is a concern.
However, an offer has been made. If the private ambulance operators want to deal with this matter,
certainly, we are open to discussions. However, on Friday, it comes to an end.
Mr. Speaker: The time for question period is now over.
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